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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Author
Legion40k
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#861 - 2011-11-20 20:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Legion40k
Imrik86 wrote:


  • It's short on power grid.
  • By fitting web and speed mod you are sacrificing tanking.
  • Optimal bonus is less useful on blasters than rails since it's percentual. 10% on 5km is 5.5km. 10% on 100km is 110km. 500m changes nothing for blasters, while the extra 10km allows you to use higher damage ammo on rails.
  • Speed is not amazing, and using a MWD together with shield tanking will make you bloom like a xmas tree. You die from the BS guns before you get in range.




^ Agreed. It's unfortunate that out of each hull you can clearly identify a role and its advantages/disadvantages to its larger class (namely but not exclusive to effective hit points : speed) but the Naga has very troubling failings to it's bigger brother Rokh battleship. Both are designed to snipe, that's great, and the Rokh has a much better tank in comparison to the smaller Naga, again that's fine.

The problem is more to do with the role itself, sniping. Consider that the bonuses and stats for the ships imply;
Rokh = tough/less damage
Naga = speedy/more damage

At <100km or more tracking isn't such a pressing issue for sniping squads. What the Naga supposedly has over the Rokh is 'speed' and agility, something that quite frankly isn't worth anything at those ranges. Pit a squad of Rokh vs Naga; the speed edge (to make the turrets struggle to track) the Naga supposedly has is immediately cancelled by its distance from the Rokh's rails

I can't see any sane FC choosing a Naga pilot over the Rokh for a sniper in it's current layout/role, because anything that can actually shoot back to those ranges will definitely kill the Naga. It's perplexing but the Naga won't be used for its designated role, shame really.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#862 - 2011-11-21 00:05:56 UTC
Legion40k wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:


  • It's short on power grid.
  • By fitting web and speed mod you are sacrificing tanking.
  • Optimal bonus is less useful on blasters than rails since it's percentual. 10% on 5km is 5.5km. 10% on 100km is 110km. 500m changes nothing for blasters, while the extra 10km allows you to use higher damage ammo on rails.
  • Speed is not amazing, and using a MWD together with shield tanking will make you bloom like a xmas tree. You die from the BS guns before you get in range.




^ Agreed. It's unfortunate that out of each hull you can clearly identify a role and its advantages/disadvantages to its larger class (namely but not exclusive to effective hit points : speed) but the Naga has very troubling failings to it's bigger brother Rokh battleship. Both are designed to snipe, that's great, and the Rokh has a much better tank in comparison to the smaller Naga, again that's fine.

The problem is more to do with the role itself, sniping. Consider that the bonuses and stats for the ships imply;
Rokh = tough/less damage
Naga = speedy/more damage

At <100km or more tracking isn't such a pressing issue for sniping squads. What the Naga supposedly has over the Rokh is 'speed' and agility, something that quite frankly isn't worth anything at those ranges. Pit a squad of Rokh vs Naga; the speed edge (to make the turrets struggle to track) the Naga supposedly has is immediately cancelled by its distance from the Rokh's rails

I can't see any sane FC choosing a Naga pilot over the Rokh for a sniper in it's current layout/role, because anything that can actually shoot back to those ranges will definitely kill the Naga. It's perplexing but the Naga won't be used for its designated role, shame really.


I'm not so sure. The Naga will pack more gank at a lower price point compared to the Rokh, while sacrificing endurance. The speed won't be so useful to out-track the big guns, but will make it more manageable with fast fleets.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#863 - 2011-11-21 01:13:57 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:

The Talos is funny, because once it gets to a certain range. Most tier 3 battle-cruisers cannot track other teir 3 battle-cruiser. Talos and Naga can do that way better than the others. Thing is, the Naga can do it @ close, medium and long range (with web).


Why people insist into thinking Caldari ships are excellent blasters boats? Just because blasters take the same skill set?

The Naga is sub-optimal with blasters, like any Caldari boat.


  • It's short on power grid.
  • By fitting web and speed mod you are sacrificing tanking.
  • Optimal bonus is less useful on blasters than rails since it's percentual. 10% on 5km is 5.5km. 10% on 100km is 110km. 500m changes nothing for blasters, while the extra 10km allows you to use higher damage ammo on rails.
  • Speed is not amazing, and using a MWD together with shield tanking will make you bloom like a xmas tree. You die from the BS guns before you get in range.


If blaster Caldari boats were as effective as people tend to make them look, we would see them figuring on kill board's top 20.



Well you see the problem right there with that top 20 is you dont see any Hybird gun ships period end of story. So I dont know why you would see Caldari as bad blaster boats when there are none on the top 20 to begin with.

So it's realy Hybirds as a hole that suck and not just the Caldari ones.

That 50% optimal mite not look much on paper but when your realy boncing in and out of web/scrable range becouse the only ships slower then you are Amarr ships though in the fact your shield tanked so you probly got room for at least 1 Tracking Enhancer on the lows and that 50% realy starts paying off in spades for added dps.

Not that I approve of having two times sucky hybird ships though as far as Hybird ships go the Caldari and Gallente ones are about on par with each other at the bottom tied for last place.




Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#864 - 2011-11-21 02:23:42 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:

I agree with what your saying 100%. But would like to point out that even though Gallente pilots are not reported to be as many as you Caldari but there are still a fair number of use too.

And alot of Gallente pilots agree that Drones are the main Gallente weapon and mostly fit AutoCannons to are drone ships that are way to few in number sub-capital wise to begin with. Are going to feel the same way about this Hybird Gallente Talos too.


Fair enough
OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#865 - 2011-11-21 02:28:08 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Good god... you people. How how HOW can you complain about two new ships using hybrids and advocate for the new Gallente / Caldari BCs to use drones / missiles?

Have you ever ~*used*~ drones or missiles in PvP? They're absolutely terrible! Drones are glitchy, subject to being killed quickly and easily independently of their carrier, and hampered with speed and tracking problems that make them ineffective combat tools. Missiles, aside from heavies, are utter **** for PvP as well-- first there's the travel time problem, then there's the fact that none of the non-medium missile systems do any damage. Rockets and lights are just pathetically awful in terms of DPS and their ability to hit their intended (small, fast moving) targets for decent damage. Cruises / torps are similarly useless in that they can't do proper damage to anything other than battleships or larger.

There's a reason you don't see fleets of Ravens and Dominixes (the two month obsession with Das Boot fleets aside) on the field. Drones suck. Rockets suck. Light missiles suck. Cruises are at best "not good." Torps are almost completely worthless vs things smaller than POS. Only heavy missiles are anywhere near useful for PvP, which, when combined with the absolutely broken stats on the tier 2 Caldari BC is why 3/4 of EVE PvP these days consists of DrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakesDrakes.

Drones and missiles are bad for PvP. If a moronic subset of Caldari pilots really wishes to saddle themselves with yet another missile boat, fine, but leave Gallente out of it. I'll keep my blasters, thanks very much.

By the way, this is coming from someone who has (between all characters) every cruiser 5, all battleship 5's, and has flown ships from all races. It's not like I don't speak from experience.



The solution is to fix drones and missiles.

Isn't that the new direction CCP promised? Fixing THIS game rather than half assing it and sweeping the problems under the rug?

Let's cut the crap, if CCP announced that the Tornado would be using missiles only people would freak, and rightly so. But apparently this nonsense is okay to do to Caldari players?
Bayushi Tamago
Sect of the Crimson Eisa
#866 - 2011-11-21 05:47:05 UTC
Gallente are getting the hybrid side of the weapon system. Make the Naga a torp or cruise boat so Caldari Missile people don't have to cross train to be able to use a decent Ti3 BC
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#867 - 2011-11-21 06:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Bayushi Tamago wrote:
Gallente are getting the hybrid side of the weapon system. Make the Naga a torp or cruise boat so Caldari Missile people don't have to cross train to be able to use a decent Ti3 BC



Both the Naga and Talos are on about even ground. But I too would have liked a 4th weapon system persent here other then 2xHybirds. And damn if the Caldari dont realy need some kind of tech 1 ship that can at least fit 8xBattle Ship Missiles anyway.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#868 - 2011-11-21 08:18:33 UTC
Bayushi Tamago wrote:
Gallente are getting the hybrid side of the weapon system. Make the Naga a torp or cruise boat so Caldari Missile people don't have to cross train to be able to use a decent Ti3 BC


They'd still have to crosstrain :3
AtaSaal
Die..Brut
#869 - 2011-11-21 10:05:55 UTC
I could gladly live with giving the Naga two Hybrid boni and two Torp boni so it has the versatbility for those trained the one or other way. Or does any one think this is game breaking?
Even a Naga using 4x Blasters and 4x Siege Launcher... is not really sooo dangerous. ^^

But since Caldari Pilots tend to skill missiles, it is not kindly to fix the Naga to Hybrid.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#870 - 2011-11-21 13:12:00 UTC
People are still crying over this?

Get over it.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#871 - 2011-11-21 15:06:48 UTC
Caldari people only training up missile skills are spoiled and have little grasp of reality. Neglecting to train drones and hybrids is one thing but complaining about not getting missiles on a new ship is such a waste of time and energy...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#872 - 2011-11-21 15:26:14 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
And damn if the Caldari dont realy need some kind of tech 1 ship that can at least fit 8xBattle Ship Missiles anyway.


Why?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#873 - 2011-11-21 16:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Rip Minner wrote:
Both the Naga and Talos are on about even ground. But I too would have liked a 4th weapon system persent here other then 2xHybirds. And damn if the Caldari dont realy need some kind of tech 1 ship that can at least fit 8xBattle Ship Missiles anyway.



You do, it's called the Golem. 4xML with 100% dmg. = 8 slots.


Rip Minner and others in this thread.. you are idiots.

blaster/armor ship is not the same as a shield/rail ship.

2 different weapons, the only thing shared is the ammo, and the skills required to use t1 sets.

Blasters and rails are not the same. The guns aren't hybrid, the ammunition is.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Kae Bee
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#874 - 2011-11-21 16:55:03 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Both the Naga and Talos are on about even ground. But I too would have liked a 4th weapon system persent here other then 2xHybirds. And damn if the Caldari dont realy need some kind of tech 1 ship that can at least fit 8xBattle Ship Missiles anyway.



You do, it's called the Golem. 4xML with 100% dmg. = 8 slots.


Rip Minner and others in this thread.. you are idiots.

blaster/armor ship is not the same as a shield/rail ship.

2 different weapons, the only thing shared is the ammo, and the skills required to use t1 sets.

Blasters and rails are not the same. The guns aren't hybrid, the ammunition is.




They also share bonus's!
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#875 - 2011-11-21 17:18:13 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Both the Naga and Talos are on about even ground. But I too would have liked a 4th weapon system persent here other then 2xHybirds. And damn if the Caldari dont realy need some kind of tech 1 ship that can at least fit 8xBattle Ship Missiles anyway.



You do, it's called the Golem. 4xML with 100% dmg. = 8 slots.


Rip Minner and others in this thread.. you are idiots.

blaster/armor ship is not the same as a shield/rail ship.

2 different weapons, the only thing shared is the ammo, and the skills required to use t1 sets.

Blasters and rails are not the same. The guns aren't hybrid, the ammunition is.


Golem's T2.

Also what about rails/armor and blasters/shield? These setups exist too. Shield/blasters is not the same as armor/blasters.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#876 - 2011-11-21 17:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Did Carebeari players whine this much when the Rokh was introduced?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#877 - 2011-11-21 17:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Aglais wrote:

Golem's T2.

Also what about rails/armor and blasters/shield? These setups exist too. Shield/blasters is not the same as armor/blasters.


ok, so not T2 you don't. Tell me what the huge deal is between 7 and 8 launchers, to where you would want to justify having 2 battlecruisers that are missile based, and one that only has 6 turrets?


Tell me, What is the difference between these two ships

It makes no difference if the bonuses are alike, when you have completely different mass, speeds, and slot layouts. Holy crap you all still look at less than half the picture here.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#878 - 2011-11-21 17:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Did Carebeari players whine this much when the Rokh was introduced?



What is sad is that I'm reading the comments from Tuxford's Devblog when the stats of the Tier 3 BSs were released. We had such high hopes.


From the 2006 thread wrote:
ROKH - BULLCRAP

the only missile ship with 7 launcher points is the caldari navy raven ... extremely rare and the issue with losing them isn't so much the cost but the fact that they are so damn hard to replace ... i can't believe you're making a tier 3 CALDARI battleship that doesn't have at least 7 launcher points ... there are TONS of other BS's in the game w. 8 Turrets points .. and even more w. 7 turret points ... but for us dedicated missile pilots 6 is the maximum and that is just weak ... cmon CCP and throw the missile pilots a bone will ya?


Remember during this time Ravens and Scorps were the fleet mainstays, and the Tier 2 BCs were still just in development (but leaked).

so yes, there was whining back then but most told them to stfu, because the general consensus was that the Rokh will be uber, the Hyp overpowered, the Mael "meh", and the Abaddon would be useless in any fleet. Lol

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

erfta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#879 - 2011-11-21 20:18:14 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Did Carebeari players whine this much when the Rokh was introduced?



What is sad is that I'm reading the comments from Tuxford's Devblog when the stats of the Tier 3 BSs were released. We had such high hopes.


From the 2006 thread wrote:
ROKH - BULLCRAP

the only missile ship with 7 launcher points is the caldari navy raven ... extremely rare and the issue with losing them isn't so much the cost but the fact that they are so damn hard to replace ... i can't believe you're making a tier 3 CALDARI battleship that doesn't have at least 7 launcher points ... there are TONS of other BS's in the game w. 8 Turrets points .. and even more w. 7 turret points ... but for us dedicated missile pilots 6 is the maximum and that is just weak ... cmon CCP and throw the missile pilots a bone will ya?


Remember during this time Ravens and Scorps were the fleet mainstays, and the Tier 2 BCs were still just in development (but leaked).

so yes, there was whining back then but most told them to stfu, because the general consensus was that the Rokh will be uber, the Hyp overpowered, the Mael "meh", and the Abaddon would be useless in any fleet. Lol


Back when hybrids were good(best even) and god help you if a ship shot from 150k+

no one reads the TOS not even the guy that writes it. this is sig worthy http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/09/mortal-online-plagiarizes-eve-onlines-terms-of-service/1#c35015206

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#880 - 2011-11-21 20:49:40 UTC
To be honest what I found surprising is that Caldari hasn't had a new rail boat in OVER 5 YEARS and there are people here saying they are being shafted by not getting a missile boat.

Roll

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.