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Faction War: Only Faction Warriors allowed in plexes
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LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-12-01 04:52:44 UTC
Of the last 20 fights I've had in Faction War plexes roughly two involved Faction sided opponents. The rest were gankers or random pvp'ers come to exploit the ready availability of targets. And while you're trying to make sure that deep red for their -5 security is or isn't the red of a faction opposite (and not just an ally with low security standings come for a stupidly unannounced visit) they are target locking us and unleashing the first salvo. The NPCs do not attack them. Typically they're older, more experienced pvp'ers. Typically they're flying more expensive ships. Typically, in short, they are much harder than your average FW opponent. Typically, therefore, FW players are not fighting FW players in a pvp arena that is supposed to be faction sided warfare.

Random PVP'ers don't belong in FW plexes. They earn nothing from it but they do gang up on and attack actual players. For the sheer thrill of it. At the very least anything but the FW side of the plex should be attacked by NPCs on sight. More reasonably people who aren't engaged in FW shouldn't be allowed into FW plexes at all.
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-12-01 05:04:53 UTC
Firstly, no, we should not have restrictions on FW sites. Why wouldn't I be allowed to fly into them? What would be the logic behind it? Plexes offer a place to engage other players besides gates and asteroid belts, which is good, and besides, the last thing we need to more reason for people not to bother going into lowsec. You are saying that non-FW players do belong in faction warfare sites, and that completely undermines the point of the sandbox we call EvE.

Secondly, the fact that you are not seeing enough conflict with other FW pilots in your plexes is not because pirates are scaring them all away. It's because a large chunk of people who participate in faction warfare are quite risk adverse for wanting to get into a line of business that involves shooting at other people. It is a symptom of there not being enough incentive for players to shoot at other players. The fix for this is to increase the LP for shooting the opposite faction, and to decrease the LP for orbiting.

-1
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#3 - 2013-12-01 05:16:42 UTC
"Problem" of neutrals in FW plexes was discussed numerous times already. Denying access to FW plexes for them would undermine sandbox part of the game so i think that simply marking neutrals as suspect would suffice: civilian entering military complex is suspicious at least. That would remove the fear of SS loss in case FW pilot decides to attack 1st, from the side of neutral pilot nothing changes.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-12-01 05:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: LaoJtzu
The logic behind keeping non-FW players out of FW plexes is self evident: they don't belong there. They're not participants in FW. All they can do is screw it up for the participants.

There are plenty of places for PVP'ers who are interested in facing off against their own kind to fight. How about anywhere in a duel? Why don't more 'pvp'ers' duel? Because they're afraid of even odds - of facing someone with as much hardware or experience.

The risk aversion is not the FW players: it's the overaged gankers who should be up and out fishing the rough seas, big nets, big boats, big fights, but would rather gank newbs in the coy pond that is a FW plex. And FW players have to stay in the plex to earn LP. They're stuck there - against all comers. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-12-01 05:32:00 UTC
NO! Bad noob.
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-12-01 05:33:57 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
NO! Bad noob.


hahahahahahaha
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#7 - 2013-12-01 05:38:38 UTC
LaoJtzu wrote:
The logic behind keeping non-FW players out of FW plexes is self evident: they don't belong there. They're not participants in FW. All they can do is screw it up for the participants.

There are plenty of places for PVP'ers who are interested in facing off against their own kind to fight. How about anywhere in a duel? Why don't more 'pvp'ers' duel? Because they're afraid of even odds - of facing someone with as much hardware or experience.

The risk aversion is not the FW players: it's the overaged gankers who should be up and out fishing the rough seas, big nets, big boats, big fights, but would rather gank newbs in the coy pond that is a FW plex. And FW players have to stay in the plex to earn LP. They're stuck there - against all comers. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.


HTFU or go back to where you came from (wow?).

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-12-01 06:03:56 UTC
No!

FW sites are a spectacular arena for PVP. Why on EVE should such an arena be limited to just a particular group of players?
LaoJtzu
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-12-01 06:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: LaoJtzu
Silverbackyererse wrote:
No!

FW sites are a spectacular arena for PVP. Why on EVE should such an arena be limited to just a particular group of players?



Because they're FW sites. Just like you can't take FW missions unless you're FW flagged - you shouldn't be able to enter FW plexes unless you've got a stake in the game - a stake that makes you as vulnerable to all the attacks and constraints as FW players. A better question is - why should non-FW players be allowed to get in to FW plexes?

You can't get in to a station if your faction is off. Is that messing with your sandbox?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-12-01 06:52:35 UTC
Everyone has the right to pvp in these areas. Same as how you have the right to use my anoms in GSF sov and everyone has access to someones mission sites.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-12-01 06:59:09 UTC
You got that backwards big guy. I can go any damn where I please because I fight for my corp, not some faction. You answer to the Gallente faction... they tell you where to go wether or not I'm there to splode you
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#12 - 2013-12-01 07:12:38 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
simply marking neutrals as suspect would suffice: civilian entering military complex is suspicious at least.


It's lowsec. You can just shoot them.

That said, standings and FW are tied together in ways that make this disadvantageous to the FW guys, so a suspect flag to non-FW guys entering FW plexes, letting the FW guys shoot them without loss of standings, would probably help. After all, the whole point ot FW is to let people shoot each other 'legally' instead of as pirates. The FW areas really should be a place where everyone is either an ally or a valid target, and that change would help make it happen. Pirates can still freely come in and gank, but they won't get the paper shield of CONCORD helping them get first strikes anymore.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-12-01 07:16:21 UTC
Even Pirates can have an interest in FW plexes if they are on friendly terms with a FW corp/alliance. For instance, a pirate corp could work to push their blue's enemies out, for their blues to be able to control a system. Or they could be hired to attack a certain FW corp.


And the last thing Eve needs is another no risk isk/PVP venue.


You FW? You take the risk of Pirates.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#14 - 2013-12-01 07:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Not supported. I'm in Faction Warfare and I LIKE IT when pirates come after me in a complex... especially when targets are scarce (random fights are what it's all about!).

Artificially limiting people also infringes on the sandbox ethos of EVE. Why should outlaws/pirates not be able to affect us?

You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that outlaws/pirates are generally better equipped and/or more experienced than Faction Warfare people. You are aware that there are more than a few FW groups that border on "small null-sec alliance" in terms of age, resources, and power... right?



Finally... there is one RL comparison which does work in this matter:

Faction Warfare people are like the Privateers of old. We are all independent agents... contracted out to perform the will of an empire... and can generally do as we please (including be an outlaw/pirate ourselves).
Just because we choose a side it does not mean rogue elements cannot attack us or disrupt our activities. We are just flying a certain "flag." Nothing more.

Now quit yer bellyachin' an' get back out there ta' shoot people!

How did you Veterans start?
Tabris Katz
The Forgotten Children
#15 - 2013-12-01 08:47:43 UTC
[quote=LaoJtzuBecause they're FW sites. Just like you can't take FW missions unless you're FW flagged - you shouldn't be able to enter FW plexes unless you've got a stake in the game - a stake that makes you as vulnerable to all the attacks and constraints as FW players. A better question is - why should non-FW players be allowed to get in to FW plexes?

You can't get in to a station if your faction is off. Is that messing with your sandbox?[/quote]


Well that's not quite true about fw missions. When you start/warp to a fw mission, a site appears on the overview that anyone can warp to. This is similar to when someone first enters a fw plex. So no, non-fw players can warp to activated fw missions and loot them.

Also as a fellow fw pilot, I fundementally disagree with you on this. In a sense you want all the benfits of fw without any of the risk of being in low sec. The fact is, we are in low sec! Part of being in low sec is anyone can attack you where ever you are! If you start an expedition that leads you into low sec, yes only you can initially find it but you are at risk of others finding you. The only difference with fw plexs is they don't require the use of combat probes to find people.

Also, the basis of your argument is that non-fw players have no reason to go into fw plexs. Once again I'm forced to disagree, they are their for the joy of combat and/or to inprove their killboard. This happens to be the reason I joined fw as well, the lp from killing someone is just a small secondary benefit.

The fact is, if you don't want to deal with people coming into your fw plex then I suggest this. Leave fw and just do high sec missions. Just be warned that this will not stop people from finding mission sites and ninja looting your mission.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-12-01 09:02:36 UTC
Let them in, just stop making me lose status for shooting them in the face first.

That's all I ask.
StahlWaffe
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-12-01 11:05:58 UTC
I'm totally okay with neuts like me not being able to activate the acceleration gate under one condition: The 'Anomaly' is 50km away from the acceleration gate.
Effects: No more 'sliding'.

If you can live with that, and that cruiser gangs can denie access to novice and smallsites, then you can have neuts not being able to enter any FW Site except for Larges.
Jaz Antollare
SovNarKom.
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-12-01 11:23:48 UTC
In my opinion the defending npc should shoot those who aggresses on the defenders faction players, sounds just logically right. But not like deny the entrance, hell no.
StahlWaffe
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-12-01 13:36:57 UTC
Jaz Antollare wrote:
In my opinion the defending npc should shoot those who aggresses on the defenders faction players, sounds just logically right. But not like deny the entrance, hell no.



Yeah, and FW Mission NPCs should shoot only hostiles, and not their own militiamen trying to kill the hostile.
But that's just wishes.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2013-12-01 20:08:13 UTC
Maybe making the plex area like a null pocket is a solution, that way if you can agress neutrals you don't mess up your standings so you can then have an equal opportunity to engage first. Let the faction rat shoot anything that is not blue to itself..
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