Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So by creating a situation in which each weapon system had to opportunity to deal the maximum amount of damage, your argument is that Kenshi should have showcased how, in a crappy situation, the ass-tastic amount of damage that the Large missile does compared to large rails or drones somehow makes up for the massive amounts of suckage at any other time?
You must be in cahoots with Bouh because you two both argue on the same level of derp.

Edit: The entire point of the test is that, given the opportunity, each weapon system displayed the maximum damage they could deal against the same Rifter. Each weapon had the same advantage in the test and the test clearly showed the flaws behind missile mechanics by displaying that in a fairly simple situation missiles did 1/3 the damage of the next highest comparable weapon system. If missiles did +/- 5% we wouldn't be arguing the point, but 1/3 of the next highest shows the disparity in weapon mechanics.
If it is so easy to showcase how weapons aren't lagging behind every other weapon system, why don't you go ahead and do it?
The only thing resembling a vaguely half-decent argument in your simple-minded post was that missiles shine in adverse conditions. Allow me to address that in equally simple terms: The mediocre damage dealt by the cruise missiles will likely be reduced as the Rifter begins to orbit, this being the sub-optimal tracking condition you spoke of, and while the cruise missiles might eventually blow up the Rifter it won't be before both pilots have been replaced with another clone due to old age.

That was my point as well. In reality, even with hybrid rigs, tracking enhancers and scripted tracking computers one will be extremely hard-pressed to hit an ultra-fast frigate unless it's moving towards it in a straight line. Sentry drones will fare a bit better depending on the type (but not much), but only missiles will actually hit regardless of speed and angle for at least some damage. Which is better? None if you're in a battleship caught-out with only heavy weaponry (regardless of type).

Yes, guns have additional tracking modules. But they don't generally have the same range as missiles, only projectiles can apply all damage types (mixed, mind you), there's no counter to ECM (unlike FoF missiles) and while they can critical hit - they can also miss as well. There's a big difference between paper DPS and live DPS, and any number of criteria can greatly influence the outcome - the least of which is timing.
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I took out a Hawk with my Tengu using nothing more than Faction scourge heavy missiles. That wasn't my preferred method of choice, but you don't always get to pick your battles. After that I refit and drove off several attacks from frigates using a pair of the new RLMLs in combination with HMLs, and it wasn't until the odds were became stacked against me that I chose an exit strategy. As previously indicated, they're a great deterrent against frigates - but you can't use them solely as a primary weapon.

You can do a lot of paper DPS with a Tengu, but the 6th launcher means sacrificing a lot of other capabilities - so for all intents and purposes actual DPS is about 20% less. A Raven or Navy Raven will out-DPS a HML-equipped Tengu by almost double (with drones either of the Ravens will put out over 1000 DPS with faction ammunition). That's before rigors or flares if one opted for those. Battleships also have the option of dropping a flight of 5 light drones to help deal with frigates.

With the new warp mechanics it's even harder for battleships than ever, so while I love the concept in practice they're bigger ducks than ever.

That's not true m8. AB and sig bonused frigates will tank you whit ease. Had this discussion earlier on the thread already.

Numbers don't lie... you need at last a web to apply most of your DPS to an AB frigate, cause light missiles don't have infinite tracking.

Since you seem to have trouble with understanding the variablest, I will repeat myself a second time...

Hyperion- T2 Railguns (425mm) FN-Antimatter No Drones
Domi - T2 Garde (5) then T2 Warden (5)
Raven - T2 CMLs (6) first test Precision Scourge T2 CMs, Second test Precision Mjolnir T2 CMs. No Drones

Straightforward and simple. The only variables in play were the target (Rifter or Raven, Omni-tanked) and the weapon system (RGs, Sentries or CMs). It really cannot get any simpler and still give at least two comparison points in a easily readable graph. I outlined this in the first post as well.

I'm just curious why you chose cruise missiles for your comparison when Ravens can utilize (6) RHMLs with the ROF bonus as well. Range is 60km-ish, so probably somewhat comparable to the other weapon systems as well.

I can't be bothered with this **** any more. If you think that the Caracal can't kill the Incursus, you're deluded. Hell, we dealt with this 30 pages ago, some other guy was whining that this couldn't be done. It turned out that his Caracal fit was terrible.

I note you've neglected to reply to the rest of what I wrote.

If it does kill an Incursus - great - it is doing what the damn thing is designed to do and I'm happy to drop the arguement. The RLML is still a poor choice, for the long reasons I went into and explained to you, that... you've snipped and ignored.

• The RLML is now entirely situational
• Gun boats CAN do more DPS over the same ranges and do not have 40 second reloads
• That the precision light missile needs to be scaled back a few % so it doesn't do perfect damage against AB Frigates - this is where the missile is overpowered not the original RLML or the new one!
• The mechanic sucks for PVE pilots - please note the two guys in the last couple of pages posting just recently over this
• That overall choice for Missile pilots has been reduced, because now we only have a anti-frigate weapon that comes with significant drawbacks (unable to switch missiles in combat etc)
• If a ship burns out of a guns ammo - load long range ammo - if a ship burns out the RLML range (33km with Precision on a Caracal - then... erm... wait 40 seconds...)
• If its the missiles that are so good, I can bring other missile ships that can reach much further than the RLML and do more sustained damage, for far less money, and do not have 40 second reloads and in a mixed gang will be just as durable and safe if they are flown well.

Another argument I've seen here and on failheap, is that these are somehow great for ganking targets with their burst mode.

The 'gank' burst of 285 dps burst missiles. As shown, only the Precisions hit accurately, if you want the Fury's in, they hit targets for less than the Precisions - so 285 is your best damage in a Caracal for 50 seconds, do not really compare to a true gank ship that will kill its intended victim in short shrift.

The gank vexor can MWD in at 2771 m/s a second - and with two friends along with webs - can do its peak DPS of 900 DPS - without a 40 second reload.

You have to consider the escalation of these numbers in EVE. If you have three Caracal's that is 285 x 3 for 50 seconds.

That is 855 dps for all three ships.

Even if I don't use the overload, and even if I use long range ammo in the blasters - assuming all three Vexors are webbed outside of void, and even if I use hammerhead drones, all three still do 649 DPS - even if the guns don't hit perfect, a single Vexor is doing almost the same damage as three Caracals with RLML. Three of them would do 1947 dps combined.

Now you will say... AHHHHH but Blasters can't reach the same as missiles.

If I use rails, and medium drones and no overload, I'm still doing 637 dps over the same range. I don't need to get in range to do that I can do it sitting 30km away. That is 1911 dps for all three - compared to 855 dps for the Caracals.

I grant you the guns won't hit as well, but even accounting for the drop in DPS, they will still easily out perform the RLML in its burst mode and don't suffer a 40 second reload. If I can get my blaster vexors in range, and overload and two have webs on them, I can do 2703 DPS compared to the 855 of the RLML for 50 seconds.

On average the RLML will far less than that after reloading.

This is why I said to you, I would never bring a Caracal to a gang with RLML in anymore. It makes absolutely no sense to do so. Not only are their other ships I can bring that do more sustained DPS with light missiles, but can reach far further, and don't have a 40 second reload, but I can bring ships that do far more DPS over the same ranges, without any drawbacks on the reload.

[Vexor, Shield Ganker]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

10MN Microwarpdrive II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Hammerhead II x5
Ogre II x3

Your Domi has guns if you get your stated ~940DPS out of it. So.... you have mixed guns and drones.

To be fair the old RML Cara would not have been able to do it either. In fact, MOST T1 cruisers would not be able to do it unless there were more webs/bumps (I am assuming the Ruppy or Moa..or both...were webbing).