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An actual thread to discuss AFK cloaking, without discussing local

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Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-11-30 22:41:20 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Still, for all the so-called "effort" It takes an awful lot more effort on the part of a cloaky, to actually deal any material damage then it does for a nullsec corp to counter the possible damage that a bomber can deal.
I'd heavily argue that. Remember we are not just talking about bombers. The new SOE ships are combat able and covops T3s can be deadly. It's unlikely a bomber would be the thing you'd worry about encountering.

They are more handy than bombers in most situations, but they are still generaly inferior to simmilarly sized shps in straight combat. (t3s can mitigate this somewhat if they use e-war), but it's still a moot point because it's impossible to sneak up on anyone because of local.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#22 - 2013-11-30 22:44:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Still, for all the so-called "effort" It takes an awful lot more effort on the part of a cloaky, to actually deal any material damage then it does for a nullsec corp to counter the possible damage that a bomber can deal.
I'd heavily argue that. Remember we are not just talking about bombers. The new SOE ships are combat able and covops T3s can be deadly. It's unlikely a bomber would be the thing you'd worry about encountering.


Perhaps there is some validity. I might be worried a bit about a cloaky tengu in system, but then, well the fleet would jsut switch over to another system and try to catch him on gate when he tried to follow. As far as the SOE ships. They're a very much untested power. But can similarly be countered with moving to a system over (hopefully you and your neighbors are on good terms and they won't mind. Actually they'd probably like a tengu or new ship on their KBs).
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#23 - 2013-11-30 22:44:59 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
The trick is, and you alluded to it in the second paragraph, is that a lowskilled player is a 23/7 apparent threat. Whereas in reality, they really don't amount to jack, because of how little a bomber can actually do.
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#24 - 2013-11-30 22:47:58 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Perhaps there is some validity. I might be worried a bit about a cloaky tengu in system, but then, well the fleet would jsut switch over to another system and try to catch him on gate when he tried to follow. As far as the SOE ships. They're a very much untested power. But can similarly be countered with moving to a system over (hopefully you and your neighbors are on good terms and they won't mind. Actually they'd probably like a tengu or new ship on their KBs).
So what would you do if they didn't follow? Would you go back and carry on, or would you move to a different system?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-11-30 22:48:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#26 - 2013-11-30 22:52:12 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Is it? Find me somewhere that is stated by CCP. Honestly I can't even think of many places where uncertainty exists at all in EVE.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#27 - 2013-11-30 23:00:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Perhaps there is some validity. I might be worried a bit about a cloaky tengu in system, but then, well the fleet would jsut switch over to another system and try to catch him on gate when he tried to follow. As far as the SOE ships. They're a very much untested power. But can similarly be countered with moving to a system over (hopefully you and your neighbors are on good terms and they won't mind. Actually they'd probably like a tengu or new ship on their KBs).
So what would you do if they didn't follow? Would you go back and carry on, or would you move to a different system?


If they don't follow, then go to work in the new system. Only thing is now they're stuck in a questioning position themselves. they don't know if you're coming back with your miners or w/e your doing.
Is it so hard though to have your miners mine in a different system then your home though? They only need to be like 1j away.

And as far as the threat or a lowskilled vs highskilled. either way the major problem with cloakies is the extreme fear the general player-goup has against them. Its the thing that leads many to believe that null-bears are even wussier then care-bears. So theres someone in system. Even if they weren't cloaked and were sitting there in a mach, hwy should you be afraid of them.

I often come back to miners. But really, what does a mining barge matter. So a tengu jumps your mining fleet and takes down a hulk. Its supposed to be a high risk area out there in null. So start taking risks.

Hell I'm in more danger in highsec flying a mission battleship, and coming across a half dozen ganknados than most players in null are of getting taken down by a cloaky.
You change your tactics to account for the situations that are around you. Don't wanna lose a hulk to a cloaky, then bring a cheaper ship out to mine with.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-11-30 23:03:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Is it? Find me somewhere that is stated by CCP. Honestly I can't even think of many places where uncertainty exists at all in EVE.

Any time you deal with another player.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#29 - 2013-11-30 23:08:07 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Is it? Find me somewhere that is stated by CCP. Honestly I can't even think of many places where uncertainty exists at all in EVE.

Any time you deal with another player.

Eve is practically based in the concept of uncertainty. If it weren't it'd be a bannable offense to scam people. And all AWOXers would be removed from the game every time and damage they dealt fixed. Do you know what's waiting for you on the other side of that gate? Ganknadoes? 1 kid whos been playing 3 weeks with a rifter? Dunno. but its all part of the thrill. Its why people play this game and not others.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#30 - 2013-11-30 23:09:38 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
If they don't follow, then go to work in the new system. Only thing is now they're stuck in a questioning position themselves. they don't know if you're coming back with your miners or w/e your doing.
Is it so hard though to have your miners mine in a different system then your home though? They only need to be like 1j away.
So now, your in a different system, and your industry index drops. Now if that's because some player chose to spend his time stopping you mining, I'm happy with that. But if that's from an AFK player, it's a zero effort method of attack.

Linkxsc162534 wrote:
And as far as the threat or a lowskilled vs highskilled. either way the major problem with cloakies is the extreme fear the general player-goup has against them. Its the thing that leads many to believe that null-bears are even wussier then care-bears. So theres someone in system. Even if they weren't cloaked and were sitting there in a mach, hwy should you be afraid of them.
Because the nature of PVE forces you to be in ships that would stand zero chance against a PVP player. If PVE required you to fit for PVP, it wouldn't be an issue, but it doesn't. A PVE player that stays and hopes to survive isn't brave, he's stupid.

Linkxsc162534 wrote:
I often come back to miners. But really, what does a mining barge matter. So a tengu jumps your mining fleet and takes down a hulk. Its supposed to be a high risk area out there in null. So start taking risks.
Yeah, but that tengu gets a kill and he come back every day to try for more. That type of player doesn't want a challenge, he wants easy kills. Give him easy kills and he'll come back for more. So people try to evade. They've boosted interceptors to enable PVE players to be tackled with more ease.

Linkxsc162534 wrote:
You change your tactics to account for the situations that are around you. Don't wanna lose a hulk to a cloaky, then bring a cheaper ship out to mine with.
That's fine, a lot of people do bring out a cheaper ship that's less efficient. But still that could mean someone who's not playing the game is reducing your effectiveness.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#31 - 2013-11-30 23:13:08 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Is it? Find me somewhere that is stated by CCP. Honestly I can't even think of many places where uncertainty exists at all in EVE.

Any time you deal with another player.
in that case, WOW is a game of uncertainty. In fact every game is a game of uncertainty. And removing AFK cloakers would not remove the uncertainty, it would just change it.
If you class literally everything as uncertainty then it's impossible to remove it so it does't need discussion.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-11-30 23:14:37 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
If they don't follow, then go to work in the new system. Only thing is now they're stuck in a questioning position themselves. they don't know if you're coming back with your miners or w/e your doing.
Is it so hard though to have your miners mine in a different system then your home though? They only need to be like 1j away.
So now, your in a different system, and your industry index drops. Now if that's because some player chose to spend his time stopping you mining, I'm happy with that. But if that's from an AFK player, it's a zero effort method of attack.



It's only 0 effort if nothing happens, if he actually does anything, effort has been undertaken. Also it requires effort (however small) to get into the system in the first place.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#33 - 2013-11-30 23:21:31 UTC
i think afk cloaking is ace you can sit around in a safe spot and while you're watching tv everyone runs in fear it's and then the people that go "haha he's afk i can do this and not watch d-scan" then when you come back you scan the person down and explode him but then you're not afk so afk cloaking is irrelivent it's the none afk cloaking that kills people
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#34 - 2013-11-30 23:21:46 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
If they don't follow, then go to work in the new system. Only thing is now they're stuck in a questioning position themselves. they don't know if you're coming back with your miners or w/e your doing.
Is it so hard though to have your miners mine in a different system then your home though? They only need to be like 1j away.
So now, your in a different system, and your industry index drops. Now if that's because some player chose to spend his time stopping you mining, I'm happy with that. But if that's from an AFK player, it's a zero effort method of attack.
It's only 0 effort if nothing happens, if he actually does anything, effort has been undertaken. Also it requires effort (however small) to get into the system in the first place.
Indeed, so if he's AFK, it's zero effort, yet the result is the same. So eliminate the AFK part.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#35 - 2013-11-30 23:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Lucas Kell wrote:
What you really mean is it's your preference to discuss local, which is fine, however this thread is not for that. The other thread is. This one is to discuss alternative solutions.

Lucas Kell wrote:
This thread is for people to discuss what options there are to deal with AFK cloaking. Most threads of this nature get instantly filled up by the guys stating that they want local removed. While this is valid, there is currently another thread designed to discuss this, where all other ideas instantly get trolled by people stating "local has to be removed, waah".

Now the idea I support for removing the ability to AFK cloak is to implement an AFK timer that warps you to deadspace (like logging off) without actually logging you off, makes you unscannable and marks you as AFK in local. Upon returning to your keyboard, you get e-warped back to where you were.

You contradict yourself OP. You are trying to "fix" afk cloaking by boosting free intel available through local and even more free intel is the least thing EvE needs now.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-11-30 23:27:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sure, but how can you tell if someone is a low skilled alt or a highly skilled pilot? There is no way to tell. You can estimate, sure, but you can;t know.

Uncertainty is a cornerstone of EVE, you make a best estimate.
Is it? Find me somewhere that is stated by CCP. Honestly I can't even think of many places where uncertainty exists at all in EVE.

Any time you deal with another player.
in that case, WOW is a game of uncertainty. In fact every game is a game of uncertainty. And removing AFK cloakers would not remove the uncertainty, it would just change it.
If you class literally everything as uncertainty then it's impossible to remove it so it does't need discussion.


You know what I meant by that, and pretending to be too stupid to understand what I am saying is not doing you any favors.

WoW is not a game of uncertainty because the vast majority of the game is centered around combating easily predictable NPC's. There are PVP aspects of WoW but those are not nearly as unpredictable as EVE's because they are heavily instanced outside of designated PVP servers.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-11-30 23:29:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
If they don't follow, then go to work in the new system. Only thing is now they're stuck in a questioning position themselves. they don't know if you're coming back with your miners or w/e your doing.
Is it so hard though to have your miners mine in a different system then your home though? They only need to be like 1j away.
So now, your in a different system, and your industry index drops. Now if that's because some player chose to spend his time stopping you mining, I'm happy with that. But if that's from an AFK player, it's a zero effort method of attack.
It's only 0 effort if nothing happens, if he actually does anything, effort has been undertaken. Also it requires effort (however small) to get into the system in the first place.
Indeed, so if he's AFK, it's zero effort, yet the result is the same. So eliminate the AFK part.

Ok so I'm not afk, but I'm still not moving my ship and still not interacting with the locals in any way other than being in their system. Yet the way they are reacting to my presence has not changed.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#38 - 2013-11-30 23:31:22 UTC
Actually u know, it takes quite a bit of effort to be an AFK cloaky. Because the time spent "afk" cloaked in a system, is also time they could be doing any number of other things.

Lucas Kell wrote:
So now, your in a different system, and your industry index drops. Now if that's because some player chose to spend his time stopping you mining, I'm happy with that. But if that's from an AFK player, it's a zero effort method of attack.

Because the nature of PVE forces you to be in ships that would stand zero chance against a PVP player. If PVE required you to fit for PVP, it wouldn't be an issue, but it doesn't. A PVE player that stays and hopes to survive isn't brave, he's stupid.

Yeah, but that tengu gets a kill and he come back every day to try for more. That type of player doesn't want a challenge, he wants easy kills. Give him easy kills and he'll come back for more. So people try to evade. They've boosted interceptors to enable PVE players to be tackled with more ease.

That's fine, a lot of people do bring out a cheaper ship that's less efficient. But still that could mean someone who's not playing the game is reducing your effectiveness.


Yeah your industry index drops. Thats part of the risk too. You want to keep your index up. gotta take the risk of getting attacked. Though I feel that this in particular is bugged due to the current changes to ore sites, and before the changes, it whouldn't have been an arguable point.

PVE doesn't force you to be in a worthless ship. Solo PVE might. But very much of my time doing any form of PVE in null has always been in a fairly regular PVP BC or BS fit. And wether you wer ein a PVE or PVP fit in your ship really wouldn't have matterd much.
With most players, the jump to making a "PVP" fit, is just adding tackle and DCU2 and switching out for buffertank. Many ships can PVE and PVP perfectly fine in almost identical fits however. And when it comes to dealing with the cloaky, your goal isn't necessarily the kill, its just to drive them off, or get away yourself. Heck, carry an ECM on your ship if your really worried so much, or ECM drones are popular.

So the tengu gets a kill and he comes back tomorrow. Well then, you just might have to take the trouble to do somethign about him then. Its all part of the game. Though fix that damn nonprobing ore sites. thats someolBS, the heck do miners in WHs have for defense now. You want to start whining about cloakies in null, fix that for the WH guys first.

And as far as cheaper and less efficient. Thats another one of the rewards you lose for taking less risk
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#39 - 2013-11-30 23:58:21 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Any time you deal with another player.
in that case, WOW is a game of uncertainty. In fact every game is a game of uncertainty. And removing AFK cloakers would not remove the uncertainty, it would just change it.
If you class literally everything as uncertainty then it's impossible to remove it so it does't need discussion.


You know what I meant by that, and pretending to be too stupid to understand what I am saying is not doing you any favors.

WoW is not a game of uncertainty because the vast majority of the game is centered around combating easily predictable NPC's. There are PVP aspects of WoW but those are not nearly as unpredictable as EVE's because they are heavily instanced outside of designated PVP servers.
Yes, what you meant is that you wanted to say everything is uncertain in EVE, but it's not, well no more uncertain than any other game. You want to claim that the game is based around uncertainty, therefore the prevention of AFK cloakers goes against the game. Why is WoW not uncertain in PVP but EVE is? You don't know what's going to be around the corner in WoW either. You don't know if you are going to come under attack form a single player or a group, you don't know if the people attacking you will be a group you can take or not.

And what it all boils down to is I've never seen CCP state that uncertainty is what they would consider a "cornerstone" of EVE. So to simply dismiss an idea on those grounds is ridiculous.

CCP, feel free to tell me otherwise, in which case I'll start to ask why locator agents give you a specific system, why gates always go to the same place and why every combat anom has a predictable set of NPCs, or why an ice belt in the system respawns every time with the same exact amount of ice, or countless other things that are completely static.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-12-01 00:09:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

CCP, feel free to tell me otherwise, in which case I'll start to ask why locator agents give you a specific system, why gates always go to the same place and why every combat anom has a predictable set of NPCs, or why an ice belt in the system respawns every time with the same exact amount of ice, or countless other things that are completely static.

This is another strawman, not EVERYTHING has to be uncertain for it to be a key part of the game. Some things have to be knowable or else the game is unplayable.

And you are still dodging my question as to why you have to be warped to a random area when the game determines you're "AFK".