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Noob in need weapon choices, advantages, disadvantages for pve/pvp

Author
TheDreadPirate Robertss
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-11-02 03:17:27 UTC
Hi all,
Thank you all in advance for answering my questions, and sorry if this is annoying or has been posted before. I just find that the searches I have made provide information that is beyond my base knowledge.

I am very new, as in upgrading from a frigate tomorrow because I will have made it to the next class. I will be using a thrasher which has 8 high powered slots 7 of which are good for launchers, I believe.
I have small projectiles leveled up a bit and can use rockets/missiles of the lowest level. My question is, what kind of weapons as minmatar are best for me. I like being in the thick of things but maybe I should try for weapons with a far further optimum range than 500 meters. Long range, mid range, short range, what should I use and why?
Is it good to mix it up, have some close range and some for the long shot while I charge in?
I currently use 150mm projectile weaponry. Should I immediately upgrade the size of these cannons?
What kind of weapons should I use? Missiles, bed, projectile?
I'm open to any and all suggestions. Sorry if this post comes off frazzled, just beginning to lose it the more I read.
Can't wait to hear back from all you guys. Any and all help is welcome!
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2013-11-02 03:58:07 UTC
Firstly, the Thrasher is more of a projectile ship and 7 of it's 8 high slots have turret hardpoints (which means projectile turrets because thats what the Thrashers is bonused for), the Minmatar missille destroyer is the Talwar.

Generally for Minmatar most people go for projectile turrets, they can also use missiles and have a line of missile ships, but they are more projectile turret focused and that is what I would recommend. Projectile turrets come in 2 flavours, autocannons which are short range and high damage, and artillery which has longer range but lower damage. The 150mms you are using now are autocannons, the small artillery options would be the 250mm and 280mm artillery.

The Thrasher is a destroyer which uses small weapons (same as frigates) so the 150mm you are currently using can be used for your Thrasher as well, however ideally you'd want 200mm autocannons (the biggest small sized autocannon) for a Thrasher.

If you want more help you can go to the Help channel in-game, it's sometimes a bit chaotic but you can get alot of your questions answered there.
TheDreadPirate Robertss
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-11-02 04:18:29 UTC
Thank you for that rundown, I appreciate it. What if I split it so I had 4 auto cannons for when I got close and
3 artillery for when I'm far away moving in on targets?
I would instinctually focus the vehicle on being a purist, set it up for all up close and personal damage. But maybe having weapons to suit multiple ranges would be a good thing.
What do you think? Go all auto cannon or mix it up and have a few auto cannons and a few artillery pieces? Thanks for your help again.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#4 - 2013-11-02 04:56:04 UTC
So... Probably going to miss something here but it's very generic:

Projectiles:
Instant damage, low optimal high falloff. Selective damage type, though no short range kinetic primary damage ammo.
Autocannons are short range, artillery are slow firing but high alpha. 10 second reload timer

Lasers:
Instant damage, high optimal low falloff. EM and Thermal damage only.
Pulse is short range, T2 helps a lot with Scorch ammo for range. Beams are long range, good damage, not as important with T2 early on. Instant crystal swapping, and T1 crystals never burn out. Very cheap on ammo even with faction/T2.

Hybrids:
Instant damage, variable optimal depending on ammo while falloff is fixed. Thermal and Kinetic damage.
Blasters very short range, high dmg, Rails extremely long range medium damage. 5 second reload timer.

Missiles:
Delayed damage, only optimal, range is from where they are fired, so a target that is near optimal can fly out of range and take no damage. Selective damage type.
So many names on the missile types, basically one is short the other long ;) I'm not much a missile person so someone else can probably explain them better than me.

Don't mix long range and short range weapons!! It just makes you bad at both ranges. Go for either full long range, or full short range. Try to use the short range ammo for weapons when you can, and at least for PvP carry different ranges of ammo (depends on the weapons).

For missiles some auto-target missiles is good to carry for PvP in case of jamming, but for missions I find it better to wait for the jam to stop, as auto-target missiles just hit every target nearby randomly, and does low damage as well.
TheDreadPirate Robertss
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-11-02 05:30:32 UTC
Awesome, thank you. It's been touch to get the broad advice I have needed. The posts on this site are really specific which is awesome but for me a bit of information overload as a nooby.
I don't use drones at all, should I step that up and invest in some skill and supplies? If so what would you recommend drone wise?
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#6 - 2013-11-02 05:47:28 UTC
Drones is indeed something I forgot to cover, as drones can be your primary damage source as well.

With the NPC agression mechanics they will only be agressed by newly spawned NPCs, or if the NPC is the proper class for it.
Frigates will attack Light Drones, Cruisers and Battlecruisers will attack Medium Drones, and Battleships+ will attack Heavy/Sentry Drones.

Most ships above frigates will have 25m3 drone bay and bandwith, so training Drones and Scout Drone Operation plus the racial drone specialization will give you access to T2 Light and Medium drones for each of the factions drones. At least getting Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente drone specialization are worth it, Amarr mostly only for Sentry drones because they have so low damage output (hopefully CCP will change this sometime). You really notice the difference from T1 to T2 drones, just remember not to leave them behind.

For PvE try to use the drone type which damage is best against the target, and Gallente against those weakest to EM. In PvP think about what the focus of your drones are. Minmatar drones are the fastest, Caldari has the most shield, Gallente the most raw damage, Amarr are just meh so not worth covering :P

Heavy/Sentry drones are mostly for ships that either has drones as primary damage type, or tied in together with another weapon system. That is certain Battleships, a few Battlecruisers and some T2 ships, plus Carriers which you shouldn't really think about for a long time.

The other drone skills are of course useful to make them deal more damage, move faster, have higher HP etc. Remember Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing stacks with Scout Drone Operation for range for ALL, for a total of 60km with both at 5.

If you haven't already you might want to check out the "New Player Training Sessions" chat channel ingame, and the training sessions already completed here's a link to the first one.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#7 - 2013-11-02 09:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
Since you mentioned pve/pvp gunnery would be most all round.
Gunnery support skills open up 3 weapon-systems, after the expansion you can skip small and medium turrets should you choose to go for large, or medium.
In 19 days with the marauder changes, projectile weapons should be the most versatile weapon platform for missioning.
For low-null sec I would wager drones and missiles with projectiles as a close third.

Your question is a common one though, try to search the forums for it.
You can click on my character and check my activity and see what i recently posted in, not hard to find missile vs drones vs turret arguments.
You would be best to narrow your search a little, when you mix pve and pvp questions like that you start this mud slinging contest over who has more E-peen bears or diehard pvp players when it comes to what they fly most.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#8 - 2013-11-02 10:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Lets start with the basics, ship modules. Every ship in the game has 3 different module slots, and rig slots. Module slots are grouped into three categories. They are high slots, middle slots, and low slots. Lastly ships have rig slots.

HIGH SLOTS

All weapon modules go into the high slots of the ship. There are many different weapon systems in eve so here is a short list by faction:

Minmatar
Short Range: Autocannons. Uses projectile ammo, has good tracking and good dps. However it has trouble hitting far targets. This weapon system does not require energy to fire.
Long Range: Artillery. Uses projectile ammo and gives good alpha strike (each shot does a ton of damage, but the guns cycle very slowly). This weapon system is good for long range, however because it has poor tracking when compared to auto cannons, can struggle hitting ships at closer ranges. This weapon system does not require energy to fire.

Amarr
Short Range: Pulse Lasers. Uses frequency crystals, has adequate tracking and can project damage very well. It has great dps. Currently, Pulse lasers are some of the strongest weapon systems in the game.
Long Range: Beam Laser. Uses frequency crystals and has astounding range. However this weapon system is never used by TL pilots because the guns require a large amount of power to use and have poor tracking.

Gallente
Short Range: Blasters. Uses hybrid ammo and is like a shot gun. It gives an extreme amount of DPS at very close ranges, and has good tracking. It struggles hitting targets at med-long to long range.
Long Range: Railguns. Uses hybrid ammo and has a very long range. However it struggles with tracking like other long range weapons and can have difficulty hitting targets at closer ranges.

Caldari
Short Range: Unguided Missile systems (Rockets, Heavy Assault Missile, Torpedos). This weapon system gives high dps for relatively close range missiles. With the new changes in retribution, Heavy Assault Missiles are the primary weapon choice for Caldari ships. This weapon system does not require energy to fire.
Long Range: Guided Missile systems (Light missile, Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile). This weapon system was at one time extremely strong. However with the latest retribution patch, they are now much worse. I suggest not training for this system, unless you are looking at light missiles. This weapon system does not require energy to fire.


As you can see there is a trend in weapons systems by racial/faction ship.
Minmatar generally use projectile weapons. However some of their ships also use missiles.
Gallente use mainly hybrid weapons. However some of their ships specialize in drones.
Caldari use a split weapon system, which are hybrid and missile.
Amarr use lasers, with a small amount of missiles.

Each weapon system is classed by size. Small weapons are used by frigates and destroyers There are small lasers, small projectile weapons, small hybrid weapons, and for missiles there are rockets and light missiles. Medium weapons are used on cruisers and battlecruisers. There are medium lasers, medium projectile weapons, medium hybrid weapons, and for missiles: heavy missile, heavy assault missile, and rapid light missile. Large weapons are used by battleships, as well as the highest tier battlecruisers. Like the other weapons, there are large lasers, large projectile, large hybrid weapons. Missile systems are torpedoes, and cruise missiles.

There are two other offensive types of modules that a pilot can place in high slots.

Energy Neutralizers (Neut) and Energy Vampire Nosferatu (Nos). Like the weapon systems, Neuts and Nos come in small, medium, and large sizes. Neuts are modules that drain other ships capacitor. If your out of capacitor your ship cannot use modules. And in the case of hybrid and laser weapons, cannot fire. Neuts use a portion of your capacitor to drain more of the targets, until there is nothing left to drain. Nos on the other hand, will only drain capacitor from an enemy ship when your capacitor is lower. However Nos well drain an enemy ship, and place that stolen capacitor back into your ship. Think of it like a mosquito suctioning off blood from a host. Here is a quick example. Lets say your capacitor is at 80% and you turn your Nos on to another ship. That ship has a capacitor level of 60%. You will not drain energy. However if the situation were reversed, and your ship was at 60% you would start to siphon off capacitor to help power your ship.

Smart Bomb. A smart bomb is a device that emits and omni-directional pulse from the centre of the ship. This pulse does damage to anything in a very short distance inside the diameter of the explosion. Like other weapon systems, there are small, medium and large smart bombs. However smart bombs are most commonly fitted on battleships.

There are other weapons such as bomb launchers, interdiction, doomsdays and capital guns, but you'll know what they are when you get there.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#9 - 2013-11-02 10:37:46 UTC
MEDIUM SLOTS
These medium slots are critical for a ships versatility and utility.
Propulsion: In your medium slots you will ALWAYS want to have some type of propulsion module (prop mod). There are two types of propulsion modules in the game, afterburners and micro warp drives. (AB and MWD). Both give you a speed boost, however a micro warp drive will make your ship go much faster. Like other modules, propulsion modules have small (1 MN) medium (10 MN) and large (100 MN) sizes. AB’s require less capacitor use than MWD. They also don’t cause signature bloom. When you turn on an MWD, your ships signature (or size) blooms to 500% of normal. This makes your ship easier to hit, and easier for other ships to apply damage. The last big difference between AB, and MWD, is that an MWD is turned off when a warp scrambler is used on it.

Propulsion Jamming: The next item that will ALWAYS be on your ship is a propulsion jamming module. These come in one size (so a battle ship uses the same type as a frigate). There are two different types of tackle. The first is called a scrambler (or Scram). A scram is a short range module that when activated on an enemy ship stops it from warping away. A scram will also shut down any active MWD, however AB’s are un effected. The other type of tackle is a warp disruptor. A warp disruptor has a very long range. When applied to an enemy ship, it will stop it from warping away. However unlike the warp scrambler, it will not shut off a MWD.

Stasis Webifier: Another type of tackling module fitted in middle slots is a stasis web. (Web for short). A web is a short range module that slows ships down (making them easier to hit, and to stop them from running away.) Unlike a propulsion jamming module, a web will not stop a ship from warping away. However a web will always slow the target, regardless if they are using an AB or MWD. Some pilots like to fit their ships with a combination of tackling mods. A scram and a web give you the best lock down. Because you are stopping an MWD, and if they have an AB the web will bring them to a crawl. Other pilots like a disruptor (long point) and a web. Others just use a scram, or long point. Either way all decisions are based on the type of ship your flying, and your play style.

Cap Booster: This module uses batteries to (inject) your ship with large boosts of capacitor. This allows your ship to continue running for a longer time, and can help you if you are being neuted or in a prolonged battle.

Target Painter: This module places an electronic tag on a target making its signature larger. A large sig means that the target is much easier to hit and apply damage too.
Tracking Disruptor: This module disrupts turret based weapons only. When applied this module hampers turret range and turret tracking.
ECM: This module can jam an opposing ship. The jammed ship cannot lock, or active any offensive modules on another ship while jammed. There are 5 different types of jammers. One specific for each race, and a last ‘multi frequency’ jammer that poorly jams all 4 races.
Sensor Dampening: This module will increase the targeting time of a selected ship, or it will decrease its targeting range.
Sensor Booster: Increases targeting range and targeting speed
ECCM: Boosts ships sensor strength, and makes it more difficult for ECM modules to jam target.
Tracking Computer: Helps to increase the range and tracking speed of ALL turret based weapons.

LOWSLOTS
Nanofiber: When equipped, it decreases your structure HP (making your ship less tanky) however it increases your speed and agility. This module is EXTREMELY useful and is used on many ships flown in TL.
Reactor Control Unit: this module increases maximum power output, allowing you to fit more high power modules on your ship. (MWD, NEUT)
Power Diagnostic System: This helps your capacitor produce more energy, allowing you to run modules for a longer amount of time, before running out of cap.
Signal Amplifier: Gives a bonus to targeting speed and range. Useful only in specific situations or for specific set ups.

WEAPON UPGRADES
Gyrostabilizers: increase damage and rate of fire for projectile weapons (autocannon, and artillery)
Magnetic Field Stabilizers: increase damage and rate of fire for hybrid weapons (blaster and railgun)
Heat Sinks: increase damage and rate of fire for energy weapons (pulse laser and beam laser)
Ballistic Control System: increase damage and rate of fire for missile platforms (guided and unguided)
Tracking Enhancers: increases the range and tracking speed of ALL turret based weapons (these are not weapon specific) (not to be confused with tracking computers which are midslot)

NOTE: Damage mods are specific to their weapon system. For example, a gyrostabilizer will not increase hybrid weapon damage. If you make this mistake and die, I will laugh at you.

hopefully that helps. If you have any other questions, just ask.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#10 - 2013-11-02 17:58:44 UTC
Chessur wrote:
As you can see there is a trend in weapons systems by racial/faction ship.
Minmatar generally use projectile weapons. However some of their ships also use missiles.
Gallente use mainly hybrid weapons. However some of their ships specialize in drones.
Caldari use a split weapon system, which are hybrid and missile.
Amarr use lasers, with a small amount of missiles.

Might be worth expanding on this.

Amarr mainly uses Lasers, they have a few missile ships, and some of their ships have the largest drone bays for their class. Amarr has lower bandwith (what they can use at a time) than Gallente generally, but can carry a lot more drones as backup. Mainly armor tanks all the time.

Gallente uses Hybrids and Drones equally I'd say. Some ships focus more on one than the other, but they have some of the strongest T1 drone ships (T2 as well). Mainly armor tanks, has highest hull HP of the races (don't hull tank).

Caldari loves their missiles and has been the main missile race since forever, and their hybrid ships are usually geared for longer ranges than Gallente with range bonuses instead of damage bonuses. Mainly shield race, their slot layouts and bonuses are very focused on shields.

Minmatar used to have some split weapon ships, now they have more a of a pure projectiles or pure missile ships. Slightly different approach to how they use missiles in terms of bonuses, but equally viable. Has some ships that uses drones as a secondary damage source, but most of them only have small bays for light/medium support drones. Both armor and shields, but I would say they lean more towards shields for most of their ships.

So often, a ship that has more low slots than mid slots is armor tank, and more mid slots are more often shield tankers. Bear in mind nothing prevents you from doing the opposite, but early on it can make it a bit easier so you can focus on other game elements.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#11 - 2013-11-02 19:08:00 UTC
split weapons systems with lots of different ranges makes sense in a game like mech warrior where terrain is a factor. In eve though since there is no terrain and your opponent can flee if they wish you'll want to stick with mono weapon types unless you're flying specifically bonused ships.

eg in mwll you can use a bushwacker c which has 7 weapons which are all different from each other and of different sizes and do very well because the mech is quite tough and agile.

im eve to take the same thing ie a moa and fit a railgun a blaster a rlml and a ham will just be an embarrassing killmail leaving your enemy scratching his head not because your logic is inherently flawes but because the diversity of your weapon profile would be much more powerful if fighting in an asteroid belt than in clean space.
Stampela Binchiette
Astral Mining
Astral Industries
#12 - 2013-11-30 18:46:58 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
im eve to take the same thing ie a moa and fit a railgun a blaster a rlml and a ham will just be an embarrassing killmail leaving your enemy scratching his head not because your logic is inherently flawes but because the diversity of your weapon profile would be much more powerful if fighting in an asteroid belt than in clean space.

Could you please elaborate this a little more? I don't really understand it, and it seems to be highly illogical: I want the pirates (later on players, but one step at a time) to be far from me, so as a Gallente it means rail guns and drones. However if the pirates do get close, I reeeeally want blasters! This seems to be the "right" way to go, but I am a newbie after all, so it's very likely I'm missing an important detail or two.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2013-11-30 19:21:58 UTC
Stampela Binchiette wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
im eve to take the same thing ie a moa and fit a railgun a blaster a rlml and a ham will just be an embarrassing killmail leaving your enemy scratching his head not because your logic is inherently flawes but because the diversity of your weapon profile would be much more powerful if fighting in an asteroid belt than in clean space.

Could you please elaborate this a little more? I don't really understand it, and it seems to be highly illogical: I want the pirates (later on players, but one step at a time) to be far from me, so as a Gallente it means rail guns and drones. However if the pirates do get close, I reeeeally want blasters! This seems to be the "right" way to go, but I am a newbie after all, so it's very likely I'm missing an important detail or two.


The idea is that you want to dictate your range of engagement as much as possible. If you fit for both long and short range you'll do poorly at both. On the other hand, if you commit to short or long and keep your opponent at that range then you'll be highly effective.

In other words, fit your ship according to your strategy in a fight and then stick to it rather than trying to fit for all possible scenarios.
Ocean Pollen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-11-30 19:29:18 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
Amarr are just meh so not worth covering :P


Amarr are perfect. If you engage five Amarr, then you are engaging five Amarr -- five ships, as one, with one weapon system, firing at you. Most of the ships mostly hit you, for most of their damage, most of the time. To exploit the weakness of one is to expose yourself to the strengths of the others. Where you and your friends arrive as five breakable fingers, Amarr are prepared with a clenched fist.

If you engage five Gallente, on the other hand, then you are engaging one Gallente at a time. If you take still frames of the combat, you may find a disproof: look! Five Gallente, all hugging one Amarr ship and bumping into each other! But what the still frame assures you of, the video casts doubt on. In so many of the other frames, you have to wonder who the Gallente are even fighting. Are they just there to tend to the drones?

The Minmatar and the Caldari fall in between. But this is not a spectrum, gentle gradients leading from perfection to chaos. The Minmatar and the Caldari are just differently broken. Caldari damage is lagged. Minmatar DPS is sensitive to range.

For a rookie, more important than any of this is the answer to the question "What should I train first so that I can have fun sooner and not feel like my only subscription is to EVEmon Online?"

And the answer to that question is: not drones.