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When is a safe not a safe?
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#1 - 2013-11-30 17:33:24 UTC
When CCP is doing the programming.

Warp multiple ships along the same line, have people make bookmarks during warp.

Warp back to safes and cloak...Oops you can't, someone else that made a "random" bookmark just landed right on top of you...

This has been going on for months, several people were accused of being lazy and forgetting to make a bookmark, however it seems clear that that's not the problem.

How about it CCP, do you care to explain how this is possible, unless your cheating on bookmarks, and only allowing a limited number of spots along any line?

Five people, warping at different times over a 26 AU warp in Caps, it should not be possible to even land on the same grid, much less on top of each other.

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-11-30 17:38:27 UTC
Coincidence. Gonna quote Terry Pratchett on this one:

"Million-to-one chances...crop up nine times out of ten."

Dodixie > Hek
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#3 - 2013-11-30 17:40:51 UTC
Non aligned safe.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-11-30 17:45:34 UTC
server tick, probably. watch what happens on the system map. you never get a BM where you click add, it 'rounds' the position off.

forums.  serious business.
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-11-30 17:51:26 UTC
Always after you make a bookmark when in warp, go to it, fly 100 kms to a random direction and remake the bookmark.
At least that way you won't have people landing on top of your cloaky.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2013-11-30 17:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Not CCPs fault if you don't know how to make a proper safe

lrn2BM Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#7 - 2013-11-30 18:03:29 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
server tick, probably. watch what happens on the system map. you never get a BM where you click add, it 'rounds' the position off.

This.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#8 - 2013-11-30 18:09:19 UTC
If you're making bookmarks for later use, just bookmark anomalies. By the time you need that bookmark, the anomaly should be gone and you have a nice non-aligned safe spot.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#9 - 2013-11-30 18:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
I have been exploiting lazyness regarding these very mechanics as long as I can remember. Get in between a station and a gate, align to gate, pay attention to your overview and see who / what passes your grid. When a suitable target passes hit warp, jump, point, kill. If you are the person warping then you can do the same thing, having a BM window ready and pressing it the instant we share grids. And then we've not even been into the subject of quickprobing.

I never call a bookmark a safe because it's not safe in any context. One is better off MWD-boosting offgrid with random wormholes or a bookmark made in between the solar plane and a regional gate, to make a hard-to-find resting stop.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-11-30 18:34:19 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
When CCP is doing the programming.

Warp multiple ships along the same line, have people make bookmarks during warp.

Warp back to safes and cloak...Oops you can't, someone else that made a "random" bookmark just landed right on top of you...

This has been going on for months, several people were accused of being lazy and forgetting to make a bookmark, however it seems clear that that's not the problem.

How about it CCP, do you care to explain how this is possible, unless your cheating on bookmarks, and only allowing a limited number of spots along any line?

Five people, warping at different times over a 26 AU warp in Caps, it should not be possible to even land on the same grid, much less on top of each other.



Look up the Law of Very Large Numbers. However great the odds, if something can happen, it will happen.

Even if the odds are a million to one, given infinite time and space, the chances of it happening become infinite themselves, so the odds actually become 1:1.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#11 - 2013-11-30 18:51:03 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Not CCPs fault if you don't know how to make a proper safe

lrn2BM Roll



Reading comprehension issues?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-11-30 19:45:33 UTC
So what ship did you lose while you were cloaked up in a safe spot?

Honor is a fools prize. [I]Glory is of no use to the dead.[/I]

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Spy 21
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-11-30 20:25:42 UTC
Xearal wrote:
Always after you make a bookmark when in warp, go to it, fly 100 kms to a random direction and remake the bookmark.
At least that way you won't have people landing on top of your cloaky.


Better yet, off grid.
I've always been leary of making bookmarks somewhere along a straight line between gates. Usually will fly to -100 of a planet, then to the sun or a different bm to make random safes.

S

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-11-30 20:32:19 UTC
This is very well known and as old as EVE itself. When warping from A to B you can only put a bookmark at a few spots - this probably has something to do with the one second simulation time; although only CCP could tell you exactly why that is. I remember a few weeks into this game I attended an Agony training course. As an exercise we warped a 50 man fleet and told everyone to make a bookmark and warp back to it. The whole fleet ended up in only 5-6 distinct places.

If you want a safe(r) spot, warp from the first bookmark to another celestial and make another bookmark in the middle. Repeat this several times to further reduce the chance of someone finding you. Or bookmark an anomaly/incursion (the latter are not bound to spawn very close to a planet).
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-11-30 21:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
...although only CCP could tell you exactly why that is.


Not really, it's very basic math.

Let's ignore acceleration - it doesn't really change anything, but it makes it a little more difficult to understand. So here's our scenario.

We have a ship. It warps at exactly 1 au/s, and instantly accelerates to that speed upon warp, and instantly decelerates to 0 upon leaving warp.

This ship is warping from point A to point B, over a distance of 10AU.

It enters warp on a server tick - we'll call this tick 0.

Since it immediately accelerates to its full 1 au/s warp speed, at tick 1 it's at 1AU from point A, and tick 2 it's at 2AU from point A, etc., until tick 10, when it arrives at point B.

Anywhere along this route it can make a bookmark, but that bookmark is only going to be added on the next server tick, at which point the server will take your current location in space and make a bookmark there.

Thus, there are really only 11 points in total, including the endpoints, where our example ship could make a bookmark, and for any particular trip between points A and B, those are going to be approximately the same place (when you're dealing with distances of AUs, a few KM here or there hardly matters).

Within the 1 second scope of the server tick time, it doesn't actually matter where you hit the "Bookmark" button - all points between ticks will be resolved at the next tick as the location at the time of the tick. Trying to differentiate it further would involve trusting the client, which is generally a poor idea.

There's actually a lot more differentiation, however, since Rubicon, thanks to the warp speed changes.

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Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#16 - 2013-12-01 15:34:51 UTC
Strong in this one, the butthurt is.

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#17 - 2013-12-01 15:40:11 UTC


This never happens to me


Because I use a special unique item

called

A MAP

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"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-12-01 17:01:10 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
...although only CCP could tell you exactly why that is.


Not really, it's very basic math.

Let's ignore acceleration - it doesn't really change anything, but it makes it a little more difficult to understand. So here's our scenario.

We have a ship. It warps at exactly 1 au/s, and instantly accelerates to that speed upon warp, and instantly decelerates to 0 upon leaving warp.

This ship is warping from point A to point B.

It enters warp on a server tick - we'll call this tick 0.

Since it immediately accelerates to its full 1 au/s warp speed, at tick 1 it's at 1AU from point A, and tick 2 it's at 2AU from point A, etc., until tick 10, when it arrives at point B.

Anywhere along this route it can make a bookmark, but that bookmark is only going to be added on the next server tick, which point the server will take your current location in space and make a bookmark there.

Thus, there are really only 11 points in total, including the endpoints, where our example ship could make a bookmark, and for any particular trip between points A and B, those are going to be approximately the same place (when you're dealing with distances of AUs, a few KM here or there hardly matters).

Within the 1 second scope of the server tick time, it doesn't actually matter where you hit the "Bookmark" button - all points between ticks will be resolved at the next tick as the location at the time of the tick. Trying to differentiate it further would involve trusting the client, which is generally a poor idea.

There's actually a lot more differentiation, however, since Rubicon, thanks to the warp speed changes.

Good explanation.

Its worth pointing out that if you're in a fleet warp when everyone is making inline safes you're more likely to end up sharing the same spots since your warp speeds and accelerations are tied together. Everyone in that fleet who creates a bookmark during the same server tick will be treated as being in the same location at that point and will bookmark the same spot.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-12-01 17:05:26 UTC
If you want a safe where no one can hurt you, then don't leave the station.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Paranoid Loyd
#20 - 2013-12-01 17:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Not CCPs fault if you don't know how to make a proper safe

lrn2BM Roll



Reading comprehension issues?


Game mechanic comprehension issues?

I thought this was common knowledge:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
This is very well known and as old as EVE itself. When warping from A to B you can only put a bookmark at a few spots - this probably has something to do with the one second simulation time; although only CCP could tell you exactly why that is. I remember a few weeks into this game I attended an Agony training course. As an exercise we warped a 50 man fleet and told everyone to make a bookmark and warp back to it. The whole fleet ended up in only 5-6 distinct places.

If you want a safe(r) spot, warp from the first bookmark to another celestial and make another bookmark in the middle. Repeat this several times to further reduce the chance of someone finding you. Or bookmark an anomaly/incursion (the latter are not bound to spawn very close to a planet).


lrn2bm

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!