Player Features and Ideas Discussion

lol
no one in eve thinks orders are unique and available only to them.

Were talking about why people perceive the prinipal as being guaranteed if people can meet the order. not wether they can meet it or not.

EVE is an exception based design. Should CCP remove every ability because people who don't have the skill to use that ability can't use that ability?


Regardless, where in the UI elements related to placing buy orders does it say that everyone must place 100% of the value of the order into escrow?

Yeah, I like that idea as well.

Having some way to tell a buy order to ignore what the skill does and take all the isk it needs from a wallet for the item, while making and after making the buy order would be good. Then showing others which buy orders don't have the isk to cover them, would be okay as well.

That wasn't the question.
The question was what suggested it.

You have been educated as to what in the interface gives the suggerstion that buy orders are guaranteed.

Experiance.

This is really a good point.

Even if we tagged all of the buy orders with their 'margin trading status', a person could still see a big juicy buy order, buy the overpriced item at a different station (or on contract), and move the item, just to have the buy order disappear before they can sell it. As Dav Varan points out, there's a number of reasons why that would happen.

Because of the lag time in the market window, it is only going to be accurate as of a few seconds before. There's a limit to how accurate the market window can be. Most reasonable people can work with it just the way it is.

I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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That already happens. The order fails and the seller is able to sell to the next buy order if they wish.

The people complaining want the order to fail before they make any attempt to actually acquire the item.

I was more thinking along the lines of actually warning the seller prior to the sale so they can make a judgement as to whether its a worthwhile sell - if they just sell to an order that can't fulfill they're automatically charged tax. They may decide after that the order that failed was the only reasonable order to sell to and that they don't want to sell anymore, therefore incurring tax for nothing.

Although I'm not entirely sure what the issue is, its very easy to spot these kind of scams, usually by the insane minimum volume or by simply checking the market history. Its a slightly broken mechanic to be able to have orders that you cannot cover (although removing them automatically is a bad idea) but if someone is really not smart enough to notice the scam then maybe the market isn't the right place for them.

Making any statement analogous to "the interface should not lie to the player" is dangerous. Do you really want to set that as a policy? Cloaking devices will make a player's overview lie to them, convincing them that they are alone when they aren't. It limits the types of content that can be released in the future, and deceiving others is so central to EVE that I can't imagine that this will never come back to haunt someone with an awesome idea.

I'm not saying that margin scams shouldn't be dealt with, but please be sure that you're setting a precedent you can live with.

I think the obvious way to fix it is to make unfillable buy orders not show up -- they would still exist, but would not be seen until the poster has enough money to allow them to be filled to the minimum amount that can be sold to it.

The problem with this solution is that it completely eliminates the margin trading scam, as far as I can see, anyway. I'd like it to still exist, as long as it's actually a scam and not a lying interface.

Something I'd like to see in the game which would prepare new players for a lot of what they can expect in EVE would be a set of tutorial missions in which the player actually gets scammed by NPCs. These tutorial missions should be out of the way and skippable, so a player has to go out of their way to access them - though Aura would mention where to get them of course. If done right, it could give players the necessary tools to avoid falling for scams, should they be determined enough to learn these things.

Here's an example mission to teach how to avoid the margin trading scam:
* Tutorial NPC gives mission asking player to get 1x [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes] from market 1 jump over
* when player accepts mission, market hub 1 jump over gains a sell order for several [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes], with one unit selling for 1000 ISK and the rest selling for 25,000 ISK each.
* market hub also has a buy order claiming it will pay 1 million ISK for a single [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes], but order fails due to insufficient funds
* if player attempts to sell to the order, then upon turning in the mission, the NPC will scold the player for falling for that, explain how it works, and offer a consolation with a NPC buy order value of ~10,000 ISK.