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Exploit: Bumping in order to prevent E-Warp

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Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#61 - 2013-11-29 13:59:51 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
This is confusing to me

in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.

How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people.
I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts.
If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.

As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.

please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.



This has nothing to do with Logging off in space. This is about logging something in after doing a safe log off inside a pos shield in a super capital.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-11-29 14:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Gevlin wrote:
This is confusing to me

in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.

How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people.
I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts.
If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.

As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.

please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.

If you do not understand the details of this exploit, it is impossible to do it by accident. Legitimate gameplay (such as bumping miners, supercaps, etc.) will not trigger this exploit. It requires a deliberate sequence of steps that you wouldn't take unless you specifically plan to exploit this. If you know how to do this, you would know that this is exactly what is being discussed here. Obviously I can't spell out the details for you because discussing exploits is against the EULA.
W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#63 - 2013-11-29 14:08:02 UTC
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-11-29 14:20:03 UTC
apparently exploit = poor game design Roll

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#65 - 2013-11-29 14:39:15 UTC
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed?

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Sibius Aidon
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#66 - 2013-11-29 14:46:14 UTC
I'm curious as to what mistake this Titan pilot did. There is no way to dock a Titan. It's just too large. Logging off is just about the only safe way to keep the Titan safe. He logged in, at which he was immediately attacked but had no way of defending himself. But yet some of y'all think that's just too bad. Maybe CCP should just randomly blow up ships expensive or not with no chance of saving them. Y'all would think twice about saying something is just too bad if you lost yer 300 million Raven 1.3 billion isk unfitted Charon for no reason.

Pilot of the Titan made no mistake. The players who exploited the fact that he couldn't fight back made the mistake, they apparently knew of this. The ones complaining about how 'this is EVE' must be the guilty ones. No, that's not EVE it was only EVE for the time cuz CCP didn't want to do anything about it at the time.
NickSuccorso
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#67 - 2013-11-29 15:16:35 UTC
Thank you CCP for a quick response on this exploit! I hope that swift and lengthy bans will be handed out to the pilots involved in the titan kill.
Isadie
suddenly nyx
#68 - 2013-11-29 15:20:45 UTC
[quote=Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules.[/quote]

lies you can still turn on your prop mod, hardeners.. CCP makes a game doesent know how it works .. :=()
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2013-11-29 15:23:42 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.


Vincent Athena wrote:
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed?

Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#70 - 2013-11-29 15:46:16 UTC
Ships that logged off inside a POS shouldn't have to do an ewarp to get back in since they never ewarped off, just disappeared inside the shields.
El Scotch
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-11-29 15:54:22 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
This is confusing to me

in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.

How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people.
I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts.
If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.

As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.

please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.


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xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2013-11-29 15:59:24 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.


Vincent Athena wrote:
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed?

Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.


Just make ships unaffected by collisions until they have completed the login warp (providing they do not have any aggression flags).
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2013-11-29 16:05:26 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.


Vincent Athena wrote:
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed?

Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.



Excellent this was the answer I was hoping for. Thanks for the quick response.
VLAD DRACU
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-11-29 16:10:22 UTC
W0wbagger wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story.


playing ignorance card, well played. You knew it was an exploit, you guys double checked it and still went for it.
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2013-11-29 16:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dabigredboat
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Does CCP have any plans in the future to change ewarp mechanics or to fix logging in and out of pos's safely? This seems like the most reasonable and practical course of action.


Vincent Athena wrote:
Are you going to build this out of the game? For example, by having a ship enter the game at speed, right at the beginning of warp instead of at zero speed?

Yes, we've been discussing ways that we can eliminate this issue without opening up further holes - quite possibly something similar to this suggestion. It is on our radar as something to solve, and we'll be running something by the CSM once we have a solution.


I tested the **** out of the ewarp login bumping (see my video on Themittani.com about it). The problem is if you change mechanics on ewarp login, you will also be changing mechanics on ewarp logout. If you make a ship invulnerable on login, you do so when it tries to ewarp on logout. This is why ccp has said time and again it is a tough thing to code. This is also the reason you have been able to do this bumping like this forever, it was only with this patch that you could warp to a ship logging in, in time to catch them.

Easy fix for this is to make the ship appear in a pos shields when it logs into a pos shields (rather that's hard to code or not I dont). You made it so a ship does not ewarp off from a pos when they logout, so why not make them appear in the spot they logged out at instead of warping into that spot?

The only reason people are able to probe and bump a titan in time is by being on grid at the place it logged out. In this case the pos it logged out at. Since all ships Ewarp back to were they logged out at you can easily find them. If you do not know where they logged out, like a safe spot, you wont be able to warp to them in time to get the bump off. Oh and this bumping does not only affect titans, it also works on all super carriers.
prudens4
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-11-29 16:46:12 UTC
VLAD DRACU wrote:
W0wbagger wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Oh man please note kristoff does not speak for us. We were unaware of existing petitions (they are private), We thank ccp for clarifying the situation and we note that dt were amazing calm about it, I'm sure we would have raged a lot more had it been the other way. Believe or not we didn't think it was an exploit, we know now. End of story.


playing ignorance card, well played. You knew it was an exploit, you guys double checked it and still went for it.


To be fair they played the game of chance.

Yes they confirmed and got the answer that it was a 'nono' from at least one source.
They decided that as it wasn't currently an exploit they would take the chance and go for it without any real fear of repercussions because once it was done, only then would it be declared as an exploit.

So therefore the winners are:
Eve for having another exploit actually identified.
SC for getting a Titan kill which will remain on their boards.

They will undoubtedly not get any players banned or suspended even, because they will claim 'ignorance'.
Although 'ignorance'' has been claimed before and bans have been handed out for previous exploits.


Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#77 - 2013-11-29 17:05:05 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
This is confusing to me

in battle common tactic for a titan to escape is to warp to a safe spot and warp off. With out an interdictor or heavy interdictor, bumping is the only way to stop them.

How am I to know when a pilot has logged off in a system of 200 people.
I am allowed to bump? How does this effect the issue about miners being bumped off of asteriod belts.
If I have a small gun on my ship and keep shooting the ship I am bumping increasing refreshing the Aggression timer, Then can I bump and not be punished.

As I understand Logoffski is no longer a valid tactic.

please describe a scenario where it is okay to bump and not okay to bump when a ship is about to warp off.
If you scan down a ship that has just logged in before it jumps into it's initial warp and bump it so it can't complete the e-warp it's an exploit. It's unlikely this will happen by chance, so pretty much if you weren't specifically doing this, nothing has changed.

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theelusiveyoda
Death Troopers
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#78 - 2013-11-29 18:02:36 UTC
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
Phoenus wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
ITT: PL buttmad that it wasn't them that pulled this off and collected an epic amount of tears


Yes, I mean. It's totally not like we realised how retardedly broken the mechanic was, and petitioned CCP months ago prior to using it to check if it was allowed?

Blink

And look how many titan kills you got for it.


Last time i checked its because a former phew member who is now in shadow cartel learned of this while in phew,
we petitioned it and posted on the forums about how it could be used several months ago.

tldr read this
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224862
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2013-11-29 18:30:11 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Question arises, how would a pilot in that situation verify this properly to you guys?

/c


We can very clearly see this in our logs. Just let us know if something like this has happened to you and our records will do all the verifying (although fraps or screen shots certainly wouldn't hurt).

the logs showing something

good joke, but seriously

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-11-29 19:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Akturous
Infineon SE wrote:
Are those "bumping guys" getting permanently banned for exploit use?


You mean for using a mechanic that CCP Masterplan stated in black and white (or white and grey as it were) was working as intended? I think not.

Much like ecm dying while in ewarp (which is basically a mask over inadequacies and coding for better or worse) is bs and obviously had to be stopped, but the tears and the people suggesting we should be banned certainly improve my day or at least make up for me not being on the mail :(

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