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Market mechanics revamp - introducing market warfare
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Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#1 - 2011-11-20 01:34:57 UTC
Here is my first major idea proposal, to increase the level of immersion and strategy in EVE online. However, this idea is not combat related like many ideas that have come before it but related to trade and industry.

Politics have always played a massive part in trade in the real world, yet in EVE we have never had the ability to set any trade regulations. This limits the market experience and devalues relationships between corporations and alliances.

Objective: To create a more realistic EVE market place by giving players the option of regulating the market - through individual, corporation alliance and faction set rules.

High priority features:

1) As an individual, corporation or alliance I want to be able to change the trade settings for terrible, bad, neutral, good and excellent standing so that I can determine who I buy from.

Scenario 1: Given that I am at war with a corporation when I am buying things off the market I don’t want to be buying them from the corporation that I am at war with then I know I am not funding their war activities.

Scenario 2: Given that I am a Ammarian role player when I am buying things off the market I don’t want to buy substandard Minmatar products so I am then happy I am flying a ship the Emperor would be proud of.

2) As an individual, corporation or alliance I want to be able to change the trade settings for terrible, bad, neutral, good and excellent standing so that I can determine who I sell to.

Scenario 1: Given that I am selling things on the market I don’t want to be selling them to corporations, alliances or individuals that I don’t like or that don’t like me then I can be confident that what I am building is not being used against me.

Scenario 2: Given that I am selling rare items directly on the market I want only my blues or alliance members to buy them then I know that only my friends will benefit.

3) As a corporations CEO I want to be able to set the trade allowances for both buying and selling to parties of different standings for the corporation and the individuals in the corporation so that I can set corporate policy on trade with different parties.

Scenario 1: Given that my corporation buy and sell things on the market when they are trying to buy or sell to people who the corporation is at war with or dislikes then I want to be able to prevent the trade.

4) As the CEO of the executor corporation of an alliance I want to be able to choose to apply trade settings to the alliance not just the executor corporation so that I can set alliance trade policy.

Scenario 1: Given I am the CEO of the executor corporation of an Amarrian loyalist alliance when I ban trade with all Minmatar players or know Minmatar loyalist corporations then I want to be able to enforce this through the use of trade settings.

5) As a consumer in the EVE market place I want to be able to see who is selling what on the market so that I can decide whether to buy from them and also so that I can openly see if they are trying to monopolise the market.

Scenario 1: Given that someone is manipulating the market for a certain item by buying all of the items available and reselling at a higher price when I look at the market I want to be able to see who is selling everything then I can make a decision to buy or not if I think they are manipulating the market.

6) As a consumer in the EVE market place I want to be able to buy an item which isn’t the cheapest available so that I can determine which product I buy.

Scenario 1: Given that I know the cheapest item item on the market is due to market manipulation when I come to buy one I want to be able to buy one that is more expensive so that the person who manipulated the market does not profit.

Low priority features:

1) As a player with high standings with a faction I want to to be able to buy their blueprint originals at a cheaper price than people who have poor standings, so that trading of NPC produced BPOs is encouraged between capsuleers.

2) As a T1 bulk manufacturer I want to be able to set up sell orders to sell multiple units of the same item directly on the market instead of via contracts so that wholesaling is introduced to EVE in a more open manner.

3) As a player I want to be able to set up individual sell orders at different prices to players of different standings to me, so that I can sell at a reduced profit margin to friends.

Hopefully these things along with other ideas that I am sure other marketeers would be happy to suggest will introduce market warfare into EVE. I personally hate real life analogy's but to use an EVE one would the Amarr empire want their weapons technology to fall into Minmatar hands? I very much doubt it a realistic market is key to a realistic warfare environment.

Please let me know what you think and any other ideas you may have - the old cheapest item sells first mechanic built into EVE is long overdue its death.

Regards,
Danny

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
#2 - 2011-11-20 01:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelador Rova
Some interesting ideas, worthy of some merit.

Would like to point out though that the use of intermediaries or neutral alts etc could be used to avoid a number of affiliations being obvious or help to take advantage of offers that are standings dependant or have some other segregation. So it may not enforce a significant change, potentially offering benefits to your "enemies".
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2011-11-20 02:07:05 UTC
It's a fun idea, but CCP has historically and categorically dismissed it as making the market inefficient, which goes counter to how they want it to work. Straight
Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2011-11-20 02:09:16 UTC
Pelador Rova wrote:
Some interesting ideas, worthy of some merit.

Would like to point out though that the use of intermediaries or neutral alts etc could be used to avoid a number of affiliations being obvious or help to take advantage of offers that are standings dependant or have some other segregation. So it may not enforce a significant change, potentially offering benefits to your "enemies".


True - these would be your arms traffickers who with some effort could also be tracked. To do so I would also add to the user story list:

Medium priority:

1) As a user of modules and ships in EVE I want them to be marked with the manufacturers name so that I can see who the modules came from.

2) As a market regulator I want to be able to see who produced the ships and modules used in loss mails so that I can tell if people are following the corporation and alliance trading laws.

In addition to this ship scanners could also show the modules manufacturers so dictatorship style corporations can scan their members to make sure they are following the trading laws. This adds yet more depth to the EVE experience using modules that are contraband to your corporation in secret with a chance of getting caught.

I definately see your concern and it does effect a lot of cases - but hey if you really are crazy corp CEO you could ban trade with all neutral parties. Perhaps you are a communist corp and then you can ban trade other than that performed by the corporation its self!

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
#5 - 2011-11-20 02:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelador Rova
Been commented before that due to repackaging into sets, this kind of "trademark" information would likley be lost.

So unless you completley change the way the current system works, unsure how easily it could be accomodated.

I do like where your going with your idea however, props for the RP potential, whether it will likley be used for any comericially orientated individuals who would ignore the features and make trading difficult for those who have "opinions"? Needless to say if that isn't a priority, I can see the value it potentially has to you.
Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2011-11-20 02:29:57 UTC
Pelador Rova wrote:
Been commented before that due to repackaging into sets, this kind of "trademark" information would likley be lost.

So unless you completley change the way the current system works, unsure how easily it could be accomodated.

I do like where your going with your idea however, props for the RP potential, whether it will likley be used for any comericially orientated individuals who would ignore the features and make trading difficult for those who have "opinions"? Needless to say if that isn't a priority, I can see the value it potentially has to you.


Yeah I was trying to figure the technical part out too but thought it would be best left to CCP. The only idea I had was as follows:

Stacking multiple tems from different manufacturers - Create a string so in the show info it would show manufacturere as 'Several' and behind the scenes a string is being stored of manufacturers so 'Danny, Bill, Frank, Ben, Bob' when items are broken off the stack the string is split at the delimiter in an arbitary manner. Would mean I can't choose to get the item from Frank from the stack but I could unstack them one by one and eventually find it. I know almost nothing about whether this is possible but a challenge for a programmer.

Thanks for your feedback. Smile

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
#7 - 2011-11-20 02:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelador Rova
Can I ask wether the primary motivation here is to try to organise trade and distribution specifically for alliance members more easily?

Sure your aware of corp contracts etc.

But I was considering a possible advantage/benefit to having an alliance, is that the alliance could have its own sub market and only current members of the alliance could access its contents. Unsure of the technical ramifications of changing database structures to include an aliiance "flag" here and how market data is accessed, but could be one useful aid to alliance useage?

(Note the individual would still own the order, but it would only be relevant to the alliance. If not in an alliance then not relevant to set up or leaves alliance or leaves corp etc. the buy/sell order is removed from the market and returned)
Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2011-11-20 02:36:24 UTC
The alliance submarket idea is a very interesting one and a nice intemediary step between the current situation and my idea. The main motivation is really an immersion factor and also it could result in more interesting EVE politics, for example a lot of T2 BPO owning super corps could decide to only sell these at the much reduced price to their allies.

Right now market activity is very linear we produce, sell for profit and then buy the things we need from market. Its hard unless you use direct contracts or external forums to sell to allies. Special relationships would begin to form between alliances because they hold certain industrial assets - can't get a decent priced cap ship because everyone is trading with their allies well its time to find a producer to ally with.

We spend so long in EVE shooting things and each other and so little time considering where these things come from it just seems bizzare from a real war perspective.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Venus Rinah
Arcanum Industry
#9 - 2011-11-21 02:21:07 UTC
+1 to improving the ability of economic influence to the game and sub markets for alliance supplying.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-11-21 04:13:02 UTC
Someone suggested in other tread something about a Player owned Market, a structure used to buy/sell that you can configure everything that you like to... like taxes, access, and place buy/sell orders based on standing....

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Danny Centauri
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2011-11-21 17:09:27 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Someone suggested in other tread something about a Player owned Market, a structure used to buy/sell that you can configure everything that you like to... like taxes, access, and place buy/sell orders based on standing....


These sort of features are just what EVE needs to make a more realistic war economy. I would love to see an overhaul of shares too and corporate regulation of assets. So with a lot of effort you can reduce the chance of corp theft through creating a more secure work flow. Then a more open method of trading shares too so we can see a bit of indy corp fame not just pvp corps making a name for themself.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Somal Thunder
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-11-21 17:21:55 UTC
I move the motion you add something along the lines of:

As a station owning corporation I want to prevent people I don't like from buying or selling stuff in/from my station. (to prevent re-seeding of goods I guess)
As a station owning corporation I want to allow people I am neutral to to dock at my station for a fee, but I'd like to charge them more tax on the market than people I have good or excellent standing with.
Venus Rinah
Arcanum Industry
#13 - 2011-11-22 02:11:17 UTC
+ bump, helping promote empowerment to industrial/commercial characters.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-11-22 02:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Alberio wrote:
I was thinking about Player-Owned customs offices earlier, and realized that it could be expanded to something more:

Player-owned store fronts.

My initial idea is a customs office like array which basically acts like a local market hub. The owner/corp loads it up with items, and players can then purchase goods (or sell goods) directly from there into/out of their cargo holds. Rights could be assigned, to control who can purchase from it, and maybe further taxation can be assigned. The market array may be set to 'visible' or 'invisible' on the market browser, allowing either a public storefront, or a more secret, black-market front for those in-the-know.

Like customs offices, these could be attacked and destroyed by hostile parties.

Another way to do it might simply be to make it a POS array, and only people with the right privs to access the POS can use it.

The way I see it working is something like this:
  • You anchor the store front.
  • Set it up to be 'hidden' or 'visible' on the market browser. Also set up the access privs, and tax rates.
  • With items in your hold, you set up sell orders. You may set them up as 'personal', 'corp', or 'alliance'. Items leave your hold, and are stored within the array.
  • Accessing the array opens up the market browser for the array. Purchase your item as normal. The item is moved to your cargo hold.
  • Set up buy orders, if you want. If they are filled, they are stored in a private hold, similar to objects stored in a customs office.
  • Buy and sell orders in a "Hidden" storefront are only visible at the storefront itself. "Visible" store fronts appear on the market browser as per normal.

    • I feel this would be useful for setting up corp-level stores for reimbursements, ammo, etc that corps usually sell to their players. It also could create a small market within distant areas, like deep null or WH space. Furthermore, it could be cool to see some seedy, black markets appear in Empire, of some pirate corp selling boosters and pleasure slaves out of their POS.

    Thoughts?


    I took this from other tread...

    Although i think the name "played owned trade post" or "Player owned market" is better...

    Please read these!

    New POS system New SOV system
    Goose99
    #15 - 2011-11-22 02:34:58 UTC
    Introduce right click wardec on market items.Cool
    Danny Centauri
    Noir.
    Shadow Cartel
    #16 - 2011-11-23 21:01:31 UTC
    Player owned trade posts would be an interesting concept - just depends where you can place them really. I doubt concord would like them in highsec =(

    EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
    Zanerken
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #17 - 2011-12-01 00:22:16 UTC
    +1
    i like the idea of market warfare perhaps making new skills that require social and/ or trade skills making them much more useful and interesting as there have been few new skills in these areas.
    Naso Gomez
    #18 - 2011-12-01 01:05:34 UTC
    I love all the ideas presented in this topic, hope the people at CCP take note.