These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2381 - 2013-11-28 18:53:04 UTC
The funny thing is I spend most of my time in frigates, so it's not like I'd even personally benefit from the changes I'm suggesting, at least not for some time so it's a bit rich to accuse me of that. If frigates are supposed to be immune to larger weapon systems, it should apply to all weapon systems not just one. I'd love to be able to fly around low sec in a frig and only have to worry about other frigs, instead of getting insta-popped from 100km away by long range turrets, or swarmed by drones from a drone boat, or melted in seconds by medium blasters on a warp in.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2382 - 2013-11-28 19:41:33 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
No, what has been stated earlier, is that even with massive amounts of target painting, and even several webs, we still can't do full damage with medium sized missiles. We're not even talking against frigates here. There does come a reasonable point where it is fair to say, a weapon should hit for close to the real amount of its potential damage, and don't forget missiles cannot crit.
If you take more time to think instead of digging killboards, you'll realize that :
1) range matter.
2) web also works with missiles.
3) tracking work BOTH ways : you can do critical hits, and you can miss completely your target, even in optimale range.
4) turrets do NOT do full damage to frigates, and even to cruisers in fact, unless there is NO transversale.
5) turret dps fall VERY FAST with range. Missiles have godlike dps at godlike ranges compared to turrets.

The problem with missiles is that nobody want to work for them to apply meaningful dps to target they are not supposed to hit for meaningful dps. People want their missiles to hit a frigate at 80km for full damage and don't see any problem with that. People want to fit for full tank, sit there and blap frigates.

The second problem is that nobody understand that 100dps to a frigate is meaningful, and even more so when the ship dealing them have FIVE times the ehp of the said frigate and a godlike range. And yes, with drones a HAM Caracal does more than 100dps to webed AB Incursus whereas a turret cruiser will only do drone dps to the frigate because the turrets won't do any single hit.

Of course that's not true for the other cruiser which will have a good transversale to hit it whereas the second Caracal will not do any more dps than the first.

That's the caracteristic of missiles : they are reliable. They will hit the same target for the same damage every time. If you are too pro for reliability to matter, use turrets. That's as simple as that.

Also, close range turrets hits up to 20km, not 60. And at 20km, the best of them is pulse, and does an insane dps of between 200 and 250dps of pure EM damage, but no dps to anything closer than 5km. I'm talking T1 Omen of course, because we are comparing comparable things, and not shooting a secret weapon for each and every scenario where a missile ship could have an advantage.

But I don't know why I'm caring for this thread as nobody here is able to understand when I talk about more than one parameter at a time. See my previous real post for details.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2383 - 2013-11-28 20:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Of course that's not true for the other cruiser which will have a good transversale to hit it whereas the second Caracal will not do any more dps than the first.

That's the caracteristic of missiles : they are reliable. They will hit the same target for the same damage every time. If you are too pro for reliability to matter, use turrets. That's as simple as that.

This is true but it doesn't mean that missiles need no fixing because they do, heavy missiles especially.

EDIT: I'm glad you finally admitted the underlined part. Thank you.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2384 - 2013-11-28 20:43:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Seriously the amount of sheer stupidity and ignorance in this thread is terrifying !


I agree. You've posted a lot in this thread...
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2385 - 2013-11-28 21:16:53 UTC
In the words of the great Scott Bakula in Quantum Leap: Oh bouh.

In essence, you are correct, missiles are meant to offer consistent damage at their full range.

But the amount of that damage being delivered is consistently FAR lower than the DPS suggests, and the very fact that keeping range in EVE is one of the core challenges in a fight, it doesn't really work out that way, or in anyway, beneficial of the missile boat.

To demonstrate, try the following.


  1. Boot up the latest EFT.

  2. Create a new DPS Graph.

  3. Set the speeds of BOTH ships to 70% and set them pointing in diagonally opposite directions. This will simulate a typical orbit scenario, but we will come back to these settings in a moment.

  4. Create a new Condor Frigate with a Microwarp and make sure its active (we'll pretend we're fighting fast kiters in this instance). Add this as the target in the DPS Graph.

  5. Create a new empty Stabber, to simulate a fast cruiser, add both a AB and MWD, but active the MWD to start. Add this as a target in the DPS Graph.

  6. Create an empty Thorax.

  7. Load in a full compliment of 200mm Rail Guns, load Caldari Navy Iridium

  8. DPS should read 162

  9. Add the ship as attacker

  10. Create an empty Caracal

  11. Load in a full compliment of Heavy Missiles, and load in their anti-frigate missile - the T2 Precisions.

  12. Add the ship as attacker

  13. DPS should read 150



Now the first thing to consider here, is that we are using a gun type that isn't as good at tracking as blasters, but you wanted to talk about damage over range being consistent. Unlike missiles, it can also change ammo quickly to faster tracking antimatter close in.

I picked Iridium charges to simulate the same range as the missiles. Without rigs it is impossible to make these reach any further - unlike the guns, but we will come to that.

So we have similar DPS ships, without ANY tracking or other bonuses of any kind, tracking two ships that are moving with high transversal mechanics.

The result?

Well, on the Stabber, the Thorax is doing close to 80% of its damage over most of the range, hitting almost 95% of its peak damage at 32km or so. It does drop below the missiles damage at either end of the ranges, but again, with the Thorax we can change ammo!

The missiles on the stabber, a cruiser, being hit by Heavy Missiles best possible anti-cruiser weapon, for only two thirds of its peak damage. In other words, unlike the Thorax, its consistently at all ranges, dropped a third of its DPS - against a target, that the missile is designed to hit.

Against the frigate, we see a different picture. Overall, the missile is hitting the frigate far better. But it is only hitting it for 45 dps. That is less than a third of its potential DPS. A 150dps weapon, now does 45 DPS, against a kiting, fast frigate with its MWD on.

What you have to consider throughout all of this, is that we haven't even started to improve things. And this is where the additional choice that gun pilots have, dramatically outweigh the consistency of the missiles.

First off, you can change your ammo as you get in closer. If you fit Antimatter faction ammo, DPS on the Thorax rises to 278. A dramatic increase, and the mechanics of the ammo changes as well.

Against the stabber, DPS has suddenly jumped dramatically and the guns without any other bonuses at all, are hitting great at their ideal ranges, although they also lose around 60dps, or about 25%.

Against the Condor things go badly for the Rail fit Thorax, but that is no surprise at this point.

So lets improve the situation for both ships and add a projected effect of a target painter onto both ships.

Woah. Big change here. Make sure you popped the Faction Iridium back in BTW.

The Thorax against the Stabber, is doing almost full damage across the entire mid range and is significantly hitting better than the missiles.

Missiles against the Stabber have improved dramatically, but are still not close to their full DPS and offer significantly less DPS compared to guns.

Against the Condor however, OMG. Watch those guns FLY BABY! The DPS dramatically increases doing the same peak damage that the missiles do against the cruiser!

This is just one module in to improving these characteristics.

What else can we do to make the missiles hit better? Well actually, not an awful lot at this sort of range. We could fit a target painter, but stacking penalties kick in and those mid slots on the Caracal are presumingly used in most fits for a shield tank and propoulsion, so you only have 2 slots free at the very best. One of those naturally would be a point, albeit we're out of range in most of this fights ranges. So one target painter it is then.

All that is realistically left for the Caracal at this point are rigs, which means giving up on either tank rigs / fitting / energy rigs / speed rigs.

But putting in the Rigor and Flare rigs, one each, finally gives the Caracal the ability to do its full DPS against the Stabber (which hasn't been improved bar a MWD bear in mind).

On the Thorax, put in a tracking enhancer and a tracking computer.

The Thorax is now doing almost the same damage to the Condor, as the Caracal can only do against the Stabber. Ouch.

With iridium, I'm peaking damage against the Condor for 140 dps. Heavy Precision Missiles with rigs? 54 dps.

Again, closing in, the Thorax can go for Anti Matter. At this point, without any damage mods at all, the rail fit thorax can hit the Stabber for 260dps and has a very low fall off arc. Missiles are still down at 150dps.

You still have room for a web, another target painter, an active tank, another tracking computer if you wanted, and adaptable scripts and of course - rigs. Now change the velocity and angles.

Guns consistently out DPS heavy, precision missiles across the full range by a large margin.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2386 - 2013-11-28 21:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
One last point, if you do put three BCU in the Caracal, it will still do less DPS than the Thorax Rails, without any damage mods. They still only hit the Condor for 159dps, almost half their damage potential. Adding more target painters makes minimal difference and is pointless on a Caracal due to the slots being needed.

The thorax can still add damage mods and plate, tank etc, or speed mods, and still has more mid slots free to add tracking computers / painters or a web for close range.

If you move the velocity and angles around, you'll still consistently find guns doing far more damage than a three BCU Caracal with precision missiles against fast cruisers and frigates.

In short CCP Rise, Bouh, this is why people switched to the RLML.

If you want to simulate RLML, you'd need to opt for something like blasters, lasers etc. Trust me, it very rarely gets any better for missile pilots. Sadly this is hard to emulate now, because you can't emulate the reload times anymore in EFT, they seem to have removed that feature, so the RLML looks like its permanently in burst mode.


Disclaimer.

I want to also - before the flames start - note that EFT is NOT EVE. EFT tries to best guess the gun formulas (some of which are still unknown and a wonderful mystery). But it does demonstrate adequately, what might happen and what you should typically expect form a tank and your weapons. The DPS graph is not perfect, but its the best way we have of demonstrating what the typical mechanics are doing in the game, without playing the game itself and getting out a very long spreadsheet from an engagement. CCP Rise in his AMA also admitted he used it in his fits and considering balancing.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2387 - 2013-11-28 21:53:15 UTC
Moonaura is owning this thread. Is this constructive enough for you Rise?
Empeached
Patusan Retreats
#2388 - 2013-11-28 22:54:40 UTC
That's a brilliant post Moonaura. As a relatively new player that's really helped me understand people's complaints in relation to HMLs - thanks for taking the time to put it together!

Using this example as a point of comparison makes it very hard to argue against the kind of changes Arthur proposed a few pages back (which again really helped me as someone quite new to all this get a clearer idea of how the different missile systems could be differentiated a bit better).

What are the main objections to such a change (which if I've read it correctly is all about tweaking damage application rather than paper DPS)? From the sounds of it the original HML nerf came about because a ridiculous percentage of players were in Drakes; they were so much better than anything else it was just perverse not to use one. Are people worried this would happen again if HMLs get buffed?

It seems more likely that this would just allow the "burst" version of the rapid launchers to feel more like the option they were always intended to be. Fixing heavy missiles would mean less outrage at changing the RLML people had turned to as a functioning replacement - from what i can work out the outrage is less to do with the burst mechanic itself (bar a few issues like changing damage type) and more just a case of people feeling like they lack a worthwhile alternative.

In other words, you need to fix the baseline before you can really judge how people feel about the new option being offered. Makes sense to me!

(which should probably set alarm bells ringing, but still...)
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2389 - 2013-11-28 23:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zvaarian the Red
In a perfect world where CCP employees actually used missiles more than they nerfed them this is what would go down:

1) The original versions of the RLML and RHML are added back into the game, even if in a somewhat nerfed form, and the new versions are renamed Burst Missile Launchers.

2) A low slot module type is added called Missile Guidance Enhancers. A T2 version of this module would increase both explosion radius and explosion velocity by 7.5%.

3) A medium slot module type is added called Missile Guidance Computers. They would have scripts for explosion radius and explosion velocity. A T2 version of this module would provide a 20% bonus to one of the previously mentioned stats depending on the script equipped.

4) A month or two after the above modules are implemented, missile damage application is improved 0-25% for all missiles larger than rockets and light missiles (ie 0-10% for HAMs and CMs, 5-15% for HMs, 15-25% for Torpedoes and all Citadel Missiles).

5) Missile users can be taken off suicide watch. =P
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2390 - 2013-11-29 00:39:24 UTC
Thanks for the kind comments, but please remember my disclaimer lol.

I found my pre-rubicon EFT, so I could take a look at the old RLML damage vs the guns. Its both simple and complex, which is only befitting a game of EVE's stature.

I've got a long post written out explaining it, but I'm not happy with it yet. I'll post it tomorrow.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2391 - 2013-11-29 01:02:40 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


The problem with missiles is that nobody want to work for them to apply meaningful dps to target they are not supposed to hit for meaningful dps. People want their missiles to hit a frigate at 80km for full damage and don't see any problem with that. People want to fit for full tank, sit there and blap frigates.
Aside from not adding anything constructive to this thread (trying derail it maybe) you are wrong. Prior to Rubicon the caracal was an anti frigate cruiser, that was its role. Now it is to a large extent not able to fill that role, without a mirage of support ships. If you read more than the replies to your posts in the thread you would see some who are willing to make fitting trade offs to get missiles to hit their targets more effectively.

Quote:
The second problem is that nobody understand that 100dps to a frigate is meaningful, and even more so when the ship dealing them have FIVE times the ehp of the said frigate and a godlike range. And yes, with drones a HAM Caracal does more than 100dps to webed AB Incursus whereas a turret cruiser will only do drone dps to the frigate because the turrets won't do any single hit.
Sorry not quite right here, a HAM caracal with damage drones will hit a webbed AB incursis for 100 damage per volley (that is not dps) and a lot of that is the 2 drones doing the damage as hams are absolutely terrible at hitting even a webbed frigate. If an incursis can't tank 100 damage per volley he should look at alternate fittings for his ship (my low skilled gallente alts incursus tanks 184.47DPS)


Quote:
That's the caracteristic of missiles : they are reliable. They will hit the same target for the same damage every time. If you are too pro for reliability to matter, use turrets. That's as simple as that.
Yes missiles are reliable, they do hit the same target for the same amount every time but believe me, there is nothing worse being in a 400dps missile boat and hitting a frigate for 100 per volley. The only way to increase this is to fit web,scram, target painter. That is 3 mid slots used to apply good damage, on a shield fit (mid slot defences) caracal that leaves 2 slots for defences and prop mod. Now you can just fit web and scram and apply decent damage but that still leaves only 3 slots for, prop mod and shields.

Hmmm, I wonder why caracals don't like getting within scram range of a frigate, that may or may not have 2 or 3 buddies nearby?

Quote:

But I don't know why I'm caring for this thread as nobody here is able to understand when I talk about more than one parameter at a time. See my previous real post for details.
I think if you looked at the thread and tried to add something constructive, rather than the "missiles are OP" line you have been taking, (which by the way has been denounced by just about every missile pilot and many non missile pilots repeatedly in the thread) people might take your comments more seriously.

My goal in this thread is to get RLML back to a standard where they can again be used for solo game play. I have also posted options for balancing heavy missiles to a point they are usable if RLML's are to stay in their current guise. Right now there is no medium sized missile platform for solo (small gang 2-3) game play. I would like to see this changed.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2392 - 2013-11-29 01:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Empeached wrote:
What are the main objections to such a change (which if I've read it correctly is all about tweaking damage application rather than paper DPS)? From the sounds of it the original HML nerf came about because a ridiculous percentage of players were in Drakes; they were so much better than anything else it was just perverse not to use one. Are people worried this would happen again if HMLs get buffed?


On paper DPS vs actual DPS is something very misunderstood in EVE generally.

You also have to consider what you are shooting and how it is fit. Missiles are pretty straight forward for EFT to model, but the exact gun mechanics are still not known, and probably never will be completely, which is a very good thing for the game and prevents exploits, although EFT can emulate their best guess and the overall range and tracking is pretty accurate.

Definitely use the EFT DPS Graph to give you a better idea of how damage is applied for sure. It will teach you quite a bit about the game and what to fit and train for. Not many people actually use it!

The real DPS numbers are certainly a very big factor in missiles currently. Almost all missiles do not hit ships for anything like their actual potential DPS, even with painters and webs, which is why changing the RLML mechanics is such a big deal. It was one of the few missile systems that actually did what it was supposed to do.

And yes, the Drake was without question the most popular ship in EVE at one time. The missiles did used to work very well, I personally remember losing my interceptor to a drake with heavy precision missiles in. It also had huge tanking potential. It could easily reach 100,000 EHP without gang links, and could also be actively tanked nicely and fit a cap drain. The Drake in the game today is a shadow of its former self, unable to reach those sort of numbers any more, and along with all other resistance bonuses ships, had its resistance bonus cut. That was probably fine on the Drake, but not all ships, and it was a strange decision to make global resistance changes.

Actually the ship most like the old Drake today, is the Prophecy, a ship that was dramatically improved in the balance changes, and could reach 100,000 EHP before the resistance nerf, fit cap drains and do the same amount of DPS as the old Drake. I tested in on SISI but haven't tried it in the game yet sadly (Not been in a region where BC are a good idea ;)

Empeached wrote:
It seems more likely that this would just allow the "burst" version of the rapid launchers to feel more like the option they were always intended to be. Fixing heavy missiles would mean less outrage at changing the RLML people had turned to as a functioning replacement - from what i can work out the outrage is less to do with the burst mechanic itself (bar a few issues like changing damage type) and more just a case of people feeling like they lack a worthwhile alternative.


I'll write about it tomorrow, but I've run some initial tests in an old pre-Rubicon EFT. The reason the RLML was popular was because it could apply damage consistently across a broad range of targets and across a solid combat range. According to what I'm seeing, the Precision Lights are basically far to accurate as they currently stand in the game, when compared to their overall range and similar guns. Its a tight balance, but they are too... precise :)

The fact the missiles needed tweaking, didn't mean the RLML needed changing instead, and introducing a system that can use so few missiles, and takes 40 seconds to reload, effectively removes that module from the game for a great many players who used it in a wide range of different ways. It does offer a couple of new ways to use it, but in PVP basically your best bet is to use it solo against a kiting ship - hope you kill it - then run away, or use it as a fast frigate killer in a blob / larger fleet where the overall 40 seconds doesn't affect overall DPS in a mixed set of ships. Although I think its pretty boring while you sit there doing nothing.

As it stands, there is no alternative, because of how poorly the cruiser sized missiles hit targets. I hope CCP Rise gives us the old RLML back and they balance the missiles that caused all this fuss. I also hope he takes his idea and gives it to us as a new module in the game, so we can use it as required.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2393 - 2013-11-29 02:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Firstly, CCP Rise, thank you for your comments on Metrics. I'm sure you can appreciate that when the player's theory craft in a vacuum that they often invent what they think you guys are up to. Your comments make clear that it is just part of the puzzle.

CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
but atm we don't have a proper missile systems outside of specialised frig owning system
and brawling HAMs, (yes you need webs to apply damage)


I mean if this is actually the root of a lot of the problem then that's a different issue that we need to address. I'm not totally sure it is, but I want to take a hard look at HML before the point release and make sure we're okay with where we're at. If that needs a tweak then we should be doing that, not focusing on RLML as a solution to a HML problem.


^^^this.

Seriously, the reason RLML pre-Rubicon were so popular is that they are the only missiles that work in PvP against cruisers and smaller. There are exceptional posts above that detail what other players have found from painful experience. Nothing other than light missiles can kill frigs. We cannot use HAMS or HML to do it. We had nothing but RLML. Nothing in the "Medium weapons system" or larger range that could do it if you are a missile user.

Other weapons systems have much better applied dps on small targets in Medium and larger sizes as detailed in the fine posts above by Moonaura.

RLML were the most common choice because they were the only choice. They worked. It was all we missile users really had other than HAM Drakes (only really an anti BC ship) and the 100MN Tengu, a 7-800Mill (cheap one) Cruiser that has to run from frigs unless it is in an overwhelming gang. The Cerb was given life then is now nerfed to a poor man's HAM Tengu, nothing more.

That's why people are up in arms, you have taken away "old reliable" and not even just nerfed it. You have given us a 40 sec reload instead which we feel is a death sentence from our adversaries (PvP) or from boredom (PvE) and nerfed total damage besides.

How could you not know how bad HML are in pvp and how HAMs are only marginally better (because they have much more dps)? Sure, they are easy mode in PvE and have wide, wide use. But you can't kill a damn thing with Heavies in pvp. Anything in point range has as good or better dps (especially applied) and if you ever get scrammed you are gonna get blown the **** up.

The ships that use heavies/hams (Cruiser and above) are marginal at best in small gang PvP right now. I enjoy my Gallente ships far more and look at certain Minnie ships with envy (Vaga comes to mind).

At least I can go down blasting in a Gallente boat until the end instead of doing nothing watching a reloading blink.

Bring back RLML with a magazine nerf if required then let your metrics tell you what players prefer. Let people vote with their feet.

This is how all such changes should be implemented in a "sand box". Give players a choice of the new introduction or old faithful.


best regards


ps. HML and HAMs need an applied damage to small targets buff. Then you will see them as a more viable choice.
Chrom Shakiel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2394 - 2013-11-29 03:01:57 UTC
I believe missiles need a module/stat/skill that has the potential to affect the explosion velocity to the same level of a web outside of web range which trades missile range for missile damage appliance (rigs are not even close).

But at the same time if missiles get to good tracking outside of web range they could become to powerful.

The only way I can think of to avoid that, would be to either introduce a tracking module that’s chance based, with potential to reach the same amount of tracking you would gain from a web.

Or make some thing that only affects specific ranges lets say 0km-10km to 30 km could be in the form of scripts for certain ranges a bit like lasers different range ammo

There could even be a module that traded excess Lock range/missile range for tracking instead, just not a fixed range value like the webs.

Right now the only way to affect explosion velocity besides rigs is a web meaning you haft to get in to Blaster range / auto canon range and if they have a web you are most likely dead with a shield tanker.

Rlml doesn’t depend on webs and tps to the same degree as its bigger options that’s probably one of the reasons it is a much liked missile plat form mixed combat.

But now it has been turned into an anti frig system only, and whit its sustained dps lowered and its fitting requirements increased.

I don’t think the 40 seconds reload does mater as much if it still would have the same sustained dps you would basically have two options instead of one split launchers for even dps or front load it.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#2395 - 2013-11-29 03:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


5) turret dps fall VERY FAST with range. Missiles have godlike dps at godlike ranges compared to turrets.



You show me a Missile Boat that can do 450 dps to a frig from 200km and I will show you a Naga.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/68054-Sniper-Naga.html

You simply do not know what you are talking about in this case. And where you get this "godlike" dps which has been shown to be just about nothing against an Inty with a mwd on I have no idea.

Now, a former max skilled Cerb could deal some serious hurt to frigs at ranges that are impressive (to ~90km). At first glance it seems terribly OP until you consider Cruiser V and HAC V which are ~2 months to train and that this tier 2 HAC is marginally effective against tier 2 Interceptors. Yes, t1 AB frigs get hurt. They should get hurt by a ~$200++ mill dedicated anti Frig ship. He should have 20 $10 mill frigs on his killboard before he goes down or he's doing it wrong.

However, T2 mwd Intys going 5km a second fear no Cerb and are a shorter train. The fastest ones go over 10km a second with implants and OH. They operate with near immunity on the battlefield (until they have to close and point) and even just got buffed.

The point being is that if you are flying a disposable ship then don't be surprised if it gets trashed by a guy who is risking 20 to 200 times the isk. If you are flying an expensive ship with a $1 Billion pod then things are changed entirely. Train up a Taranis and /profit. You can easily tank his volleys while orbiting at 4km/s and pointing him until your 2 buddies in Catalysts arrive and blow him away.

What I also will grant you is that a missile boat is flown differently than a gun boat. You fly a missile boat to *create* max transversal on your opponent. You fly a gun boat to minimize it so that your applied dps is highest. The bad missile dps is coming at a steady stream, the turret dps comes and goes typically. But when it comes it hits hard.

This is one reason why we agree it is reasonable for missile boats to have less total dps/applied dps because when total damage is added up at the end of a fight there is more balance than would be immediately apparent when looking at paper dps. If a turret ship is piloted poorly, or the fight was chosen unwisely, it will have poor applied dps and the steady bad dps of a missile boat (kestrel/condor comes to mind) may seem uber. This may explain your assessment of the situation.

Regardless, that is not to say that the issues in this thread are resolved: RLML 40sec reload time is terrible game play imo, and Heavy missiles need an applied damage buff so that Cruiser/BC pilots can fight like ships and have a defense against frigs (but we are not asking that they be made remotely powerful enough for them to be used for the dedicated anti-frig role).

Anyways, Bouh, please share with us your experience actually using missiles, especially the new RLML and then you may have more useful information to share rather than simply asking for your opponents to be nerfed while complaining about perceived advantages that simply don't exist.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2396 - 2013-11-29 03:57:16 UTC
Moonaura wrote:


In short CCP Rise, Bouh, this is why people switched to the RLML.

Sadly this is hard to emulate now, because you can't emulate the reload times anymore in EFT, they seem to have removed that feature, so the RLML looks like its permanently in burst mode..
The emulation is still available in EFT under preferences - Setup parameters calculation - Include reload time in dps..


Great post.. +1 +1 +1

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2397 - 2013-11-29 07:23:16 UTC
Why not just first introduce a new Ballistics Enhancer module that would (T2 version):

• Increase explosion velocity 20%
• Decrease explosion radius 10%
• Increase missile velocity by 10%

This would be a low-slot passive module similar to the Tracking Enhancer module for gunnery. Tracking computers/scripts and tracking disruptors would still be exclusively (and separate) to turrets. We still need a 20-second and 30-second reload time on RLMLs and RHMLs, respectively - as well as small tweaks to damage application to HAMs and HMs:

• Heavy missile: explosion radius 125(-15), explosion velocity 100(+19)
• Heavy assault missile: explosion radius 100(-25), explosion velocity 125(+24)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2398 - 2013-11-29 09:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Yes, t1 AB frigs get hurt. They should get hurt by a ~$200++ mill dedicated anti Frig ship. He should have 20 $10 mill frigs on his killboard before he goes down or he's doing it wrong.

That's where you get wrong. AB frigates should not get hurt by a cruiser because you spent 200Misks in it, they should get hurt by destroyers.

And interceptors get hurt by destroyers and combat interceptors.

There's not only your precious missiles cruisers in the game. There are dozens of other ships.

And if your amazing Naga can indeed do 450dps to a frigate at 200km, please tell me how much he will do to any ship with any semblance of transversale speed below 100km, you the ranges where people actually fly in game.

Now, to the interesting post of Moonaura
Moonaura wrote:
To demonstrate, try the following.


Boot up the latest EFT.

Create a new DPS Graph.

Set the speeds of BOTH ships to 70% and set them pointing in diagonally opposite directions. This will simulate a typical orbit scenario, but we will come back to these settings in a moment.

Create a new Condor Frigate with a Microwarp and make sure its active (we'll pretend we're fighting fast kiters in this instance). Add this as the target in the DPS Graph.

Create a new empty Stabber, to simulate a fast cruiser, add both a AB and MWD, but active the MWD to start. Add this as a target in the DPS Graph.

Create an empty Thorax.

Load in a full compliment of 200mm Rail Guns, load Caldari Navy Iridium

DPS should read 162

Add the ship as attacker

Create an empty Caracal

Load in a full compliment of Heavy Missiles, and load in their anti-frigate missile - the T2 Precisions.

Add the ship as attacker

DPS should read 150

First, thank you for taking the time to look at numbers. But you're still missing a bit of distance to these numbers to understand what they mean. But before, a few remarks :
First, why did you took a target Stabber ? I'm affraid the Stabber is a lot more popular in missiles thread for missiles user to "demonstrate" the limits of their weapons than in game, but the worst is that it is a dishonnest choice, because the Stabber is one of the cruiser with the best speed/sig ratio, and one of the lightest on top of that. What didn't you pick a gallente or caldari cruiser ? Why didn't you pick an amarr cruiser even ? Amarr speed/sig ratio is quite good, and still not as extreme as minmatar cruisers.

Keep in mind that if your missiles are designed to hit cruisers, minmatar ships are designed to avoid damage a lot more than any other ships. If you want a regular cruiser with regular speed/sig ratio, look at caldari or gallente ones, but please stop complaining that the peeler is very good at peeling potatoes...

The same comment apply to the Condor : it's an attack frigate, desgined to be fast, light and nimble. Also notice that Condor very often have a tracking dirsuptor...

Second, IIRC, iridum 200mm railgun hit to 30km versus 40 for precision missiles, but I guess we can take 10km from missiles path. Also consider with the ammo swapping that tracking does not increase, only dps does, so if you swap to shorter range ammo, you'll don't any more dps to the frigate as you'll in fact miss a lot more often due to increased tracking at shorter range.

Thirdly, the Condor is a lot faster than the Thorax (by more than 50%), so he will set the distance and transversale, but more about this later. Here is a graph of a shield rail thorax with 2MFS+1TE, and a painted (eventhough the thorax don't have a painter) Condor with no speed mod as a target : http://o.smium.org/compare/dps/s,0,http%3A%2F%2Fo.smium.org%2Fnew%2F7336822718832050176%23search%2Cmodules,NSC%20Rail%20Thorax%20%28fork%29/tv,3500/tsr,275.
Here is a 2BCS HML Caracal with precision loaded : http://o.smium.org/compare/dps/s,0,http%3A%2F%2Fo.smium.org%2Fnew%2F4967560080791699456,HML%20Caracal%20%28fork%29/tv,3500/tsr,275

OK, so what do the numbers show now ? As you can see, turret dps against a fast moving target is a bell, more or less fat depending of the effective transversale (effective = including signature which is a multiplier for transversale) of the target. And as you can see, there is only a band of distances where turrets apply meaningful dps. In fact, 200mm railguns outdps precision HML against a painted Condor only bewteen 30 and 50km.

But why would the Condor stay in this band of danger to him ? And why is he not TDing you to death ?

You see, that's the difference between turrets and missiles : missiles are reliable. They don't care if you are close or not, they only care about your instant speed. In a perfect carebear world where you are a PGM and your ennemies are noobs, turrets will always be better than missiles. But that is only because you became more naive than a child and believe you can keep everything under controle.
But if you ever pvped in EVE, you know that's not reality. In reality, things move fast, and keeping your target in this band of applyed dps will be all but easy, if you ever managed to bring it in this range at all. Remember the Condor is at least 50% faster than you, and two third of your optimale range is worthless. Even worth, these danger range for your Thorax are actually the ones where the Condor will be to tackle you.

With missiles, you trade potential for reliablility and range.

And finaly, just notice how insanley better RLML are to shoot at frigates.

Now, I'm not completely sure about the balance of HML, but realise a 2BCS Caracal will hit a MWDing Thorax (an attack cruiser) for 165dps @90km.

Also, just put rigor rigs on your missiles ships. They are *always* better than than flare. As a missile user you should know that.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2399 - 2013-11-29 09:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
double post, sorry.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2400 - 2013-11-29 10:14:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


And finaly, just notice how insanley better RLML are to shoot at frigates.
Please edit to read "Frigate", you only get to shoot at 1 before having to warp out for your 40 second reload. Just hope 1 of those pesky ceptors doesn't catch you 1st or you'll be reading your killmail instead of reloading.

Quote:
Now, I'm not completely sure about the balance of HML, but realise a 2BCS Caracal will hit a MWDing Thorax (an attack cruiser) for 165dps @90km.
Ahh the ideal world of eve pvp, where you target is mwding around a wreck well outside his range but nicely in yours.
HML's need to be balanced, especially now RLML has such a limited area of use.

Not really sure what the point of your post was as the post you quoted was based on the more realistic use of HML Caracal vs frigate using Precision missiles, which have a range of 47 not 90k. So less DPS, less range.

Maybe you could redo your graphs and for comparison. Use a HML Caracal vs a range of ships you are likely to encounter. All I can see from your Caracal graph is it does 50DPS up to 95k vs what i presume to be a fast moving frigate.. If that is in fact the case, then i think it should be quite clear HML's need a buff as most 1 month old rookies could tank 50 dps all day, or simply warp off. As missiles do the same damage at 90k as they do at 20k does that not sort of mean those missiles aren't very good??


**I don't know where you pvp but around my way, every 2nd ship is minmatar. Can get very annoying Shocked

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.