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Battleships???
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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-11-28 19:06:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No not wrong. Those stats are real and both the Mega and Proteus were fit with the exact same fittings.
So you weren't fitting the Mega properly then? After all, if they're the exact same fittings, you're not filling up the slots available and you're using medium turrets. Blink

I suppose that explains the low DPS on the thing…

You also seem to be skipping out the important point of damage application. The Mega will happily do its 1300 DPS out beyond 10km; at that range, the Proteus is down to just its drones. Alternatively, it can venture into web/scram range and have a speed of about 90m/s…

Quote:
Really because both those ships were fit with Nuetrons, with Void, 3 Magstabs, EANM's, 1 Active Exp Hardner each, 1600 Plate (mega had a damage control) and a MWD, with Trimarks...
Ok. That gives the Proteus 115k EHP and the Mega 120k.

You should stick to something you actually have knowledge about Tippia, you're out of depth.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-11-28 19:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.


Like I said, get a Typhoon if you want neuts. Hell, bring a 'geddon along with your gang.

EDIT: The Megathrons job is to drop the hammer with a huge amount of DPS, not neut people out. Get a different ship on the field with neuts if you want that.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2013-11-28 19:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You should stick to something you actually have knowledge about Tippia, you're out of depth.

So I shouldn't fit the ships the way you describe them, then? After all, that's how I got those results…

Or should I just do what I normally do and conclude that I'm right and you're wrong, and you know it because all you can come back with is ad hominems rather than anything even remotely resembling a coherent or intelligent argument.

(No, the lack of a question mark at the end of that second sentence is not an error.)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-11-28 19:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.


Like I said, get a Typhoon if you want neuts. Hell, bring a 'geddon along with your gang.

EDIT: The Megathrons job is to drop the hammer with a huge amount of DPS, not neut people out. Get a different ship on the field with neuts if you want that.

Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...


Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You should stick to something you actually have knowledge about Tippia, you're out of depth.

So I shouldn't fit the ships the way you describe them, then? After all, that's how I got those results…

Or should I just do what I normally do and conclude that I'm right and you're wrong, and you know it because all you can come back with is ad hominems rather than anything even remotely resembling a coherent or intelligent argument.

(No, the lack of a question mark at the end of that second sentence is not an error.)

They were fit with the same modules (specific to their size) as you well know. I'm not interested in your silly games thank you.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#45 - 2013-11-28 19:14:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...

So why are you comparing a BS to a cruiser? Are you arguing that BSes suck because T3s are OP?

Oh god.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-11-28 19:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugia3
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.


Like I said, get a Typhoon if you want neuts. Hell, bring a 'geddon along with your gang.

EDIT: The Megathrons job is to drop the hammer with a huge amount of DPS, not neut people out. Get a different ship on the field with neuts if you want that.

Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...


That's a bit hypocritical. If you want to hyper-specialize a Megathron (wrong ship for the job) to take on 1 specific ship, go do it. Just saying that there are far better options to use than a Megathron with neuts.

Also, explosive hardener is stupid when fighting a boat that only shoots Thermal/Kinetic from it's guns.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2013-11-28 19:19:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They were fit with the same modules (specific to their class) as you well know. I'm not interested in your silly games thank you.
Ok.
So the Mega does 1300 DPS out to 10km, with 120k EHP to back it up; the Proteus does (supposedly, but not actually) 850ish DPS out to 4km, with 115k EHP to back it up. The Mega, thanks to its range, does 960m/s; the Proteus does 90m/s. The lock-on differences are irrelevant since we're looking at blaster fits.

Quote:
this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.
No. This was about the numeric presence of battleships and T3s in null. Just because you're making a pretty irrelevant comparison of fits that people don't use doesn't bolster your argument that there aren't many battleships around.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-11-28 19:21:58 UTC
Grunanca wrote:
Try flying with friends. Battleships are still king of the hill when not counting T3 fleets. Problem is that people tend to run when you make a battleship fleet. Bhaalgorn, Abaddon and Armageddon are definately here to stay!



Without support a battleship fleet will be vulnerable to cruisers with support.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-11-28 19:23:46 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...

So why are you comparing a BS to a cruiser? Are you arguing that BSes suck because T3s are OP?

No I'm saying that given that a Prot outperforms a Megathron in almost every area for the same price its clear that Battleships are complete shite.

I think the Proteus is fine, Battleships need a complete overhaul to make them useful enough to use in PvP. Something similiar to what the Marauders got.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2013-11-28 19:24:45 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No I'm saying that given that a Prot outperforms a Megathron in almost every area for the same price its clear that Battleships are complete shite.
…and the problem is that this is not a given.

Quote:
I think the Proteus is fine, Battleships need a complete overhaul to make them useful enough to use in PvP.
…except that they're apparently useful enough since plenty of them are used in PvP.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2013-11-28 19:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.


Like I said, get a Typhoon if you want neuts. Hell, bring a 'geddon along with your gang.

EDIT: The Megathrons job is to drop the hammer with a huge amount of DPS, not neut people out. Get a different ship on the field with neuts if you want that.

Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...


That's a bit hypocritical. If you want to hyper-specialize a Megathron (wrong ship for the job) to take on 1 specific ship, go do it. Just saying that there are far better options to use than a Megathron with neuts.

Also, explosive hardener is stupid when fighting a boat that only shoots Thermal/Kinetic from it's guns.

A Mega with a large neut is not hyper-specialized ffs. Its simply logical to use one. You cannot fit a ship to take on 1 specific other ship if you're roaming. You don't know what you're meet. If you meet a cruiser, intie, something that can web from range, or kite you, that extra blaster means nothing. If you have a large neut you can at least leave at a minimum. 1 large nuet can mean the difference between a killmail and a pod.

There is no better option than a heavy nuet on a battleship even if you have to give up 1 turret.

And as for the xplosive hardner, with your fit, if you meet anything other than a ken / thermal firing ship you're dead, 20ish EM and 30ish explosive is complete fail.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-11-28 19:28:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Like I said, if you want to go comparing fleets, go somewhere else, this is about battleships my comment was about the singular abilities of the Megathron vs the singular abilities of the Proteus.

Singular as in a comparison of ONE ship vs ONE ship...

So why are you comparing a BS to a cruiser? Are you arguing that BSes suck because T3s are OP?

No I'm saying that given that a Prot outperforms a Megathron in almost every area for the same price its clear that Battleships are complete shite.


This is implying that battleships are 'complete shite' just because they're matched by T3s, but gives no consideration for what they outmatch. You are manufacturing the shity-ness of battleships based on one situation only, but there isn't a ship in the game that isn't situationally-exceptional in one way or another.

Except rookie ships... wait, no, I take that back. Cynos.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-11-28 19:32:38 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Lol. If you want to trade 100 dps for the ability to cap out your enemy please feel free. A fleet of mega's with 1 nuet each vs a fleet of megas with only blasters is going to wtf pwn the latter.

The one benefit a battleship has over every non-cap ship other than the bonused neut ships is the ability to reach out to up to 40km and drain somethings cap dry before they even get into range.


Like I said, get a Typhoon if you want neuts. Hell, bring a 'geddon along with your gang.

EDIT: The Megathrons job is to drop the hammer with a huge amount of DPS, not neut people out. Get a different ship on the field with neuts if you want that.



You realize typhoon has only 1 utility high now?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2013-11-28 19:34:26 UTC
There is no place for a heavy neut on a fleet fit mega.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-11-28 19:40:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
There is no place for a heavy neut on a fleet fit mega.

Fleets have no place in the comparison of battleship hulls unless you're specifically talking of fleet combat.

Lets say you go on a roam with 5 mega, you run into 5 crows, with only blasters and unbonused warriors you're all going to die. With 1 neut fitted each you can easily kill every intie.

1 nuet = possible victory vs any equal group of subcaps in game. No neuts = certain death.

That's the difference.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-11-28 19:45:46 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fleets have no place in the comparison of battleship hulls unless you're specifically talking of fleet combat.
The same holds true for solo fits.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-11-28 19:47:20 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is no place for a heavy neut on a fleet fit mega.

Fleets have no place in the comparison of battleship hulls unless you're specifically talking of fleet combat.

Lets say you go on a roam with 5 mega, you run into 5 crows, with only blasters and unbonused warriors you're all going to die. With 1 neut fitted each you can easily kill every intie.

1 nuet = possible victory vs any equal group of subcaps in game. No neuts = certain death.

That's the difference.


Can`t they just load long rande ammo slow boat a bit away from each other thus reducing the radial velocity of the small ship for thier tracking to get back in line to start hitting?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#58 - 2013-11-28 19:49:05 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lets say you go on a roam with 5 mega, you run into 5 crows, with only blasters and unbonused warriors you're all going to die.

I don't know, I'd say a Crow with 5-10 webs on it is probably going to die pretty fast.

Oh god.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-11-28 19:51:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fleets have no place in the comparison of battleship hulls unless you're specifically talking of fleet combat.
The same holds true for solo fits.

The only way you can compare a ship is compare it without extraneous data. I can fit a mega with small lazers and mining drones, join a fleet fight and get on a ton of killmails.

The fleet picks up my slack, making any comparison of the actual ship useless.

What you are trying to do is analogous to entering a VW Beetle in a race and then claiming its a viable racing car because your team won - ignoring the abilities of the other team members vehicles which may have contributed 100% to the victory.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#60 - 2013-11-28 19:52:34 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is no place for a heavy neut on a fleet fit mega.

Fleets have no place in the comparison of battleship hulls unless you're specifically talking of fleet combat.

Lets say you go on a roam with 5 mega, you run into 5 crows, with only blasters and unbonused warriors you're all going to die. With 1 neut fitted each you can easily kill every intie.

1 nuet = possible victory vs any equal group of subcaps in game. No neuts = certain death.

That's the difference.


You bring a geddon, a ship built for neuts.

That said, you web said crows, scram and one or two of you mjd out to range and whack them. Or you dump the 25 unbonused warrior II's onto the webbed crows and laugh as they pop.