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T2 Venture - Finally a gas harvesting hull!
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Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#1 - 2013-11-27 16:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
So it has come to my attention that, aside form the Venture, industrialists have no viable alternative to the Venture for gas harvesting.

It has also come to my attention that the venture has to t2 variant.

Hence, I suggest a

Quote:
T2 Venture:

Structure HP: 350
Shield HP: 480
Armor HP: 300

4 high slots (3 turret hardpoints, 0 launcher hardpoints)
4 mids
2 lows

8'000 m3 gas hold. (not sure if feasible due to gas having the same item type as raw ore.)

PWG: 55 MW
CPU: 280 tf

Same resists as Venture except a shield resist to explosive to survive gas cloud explosions better.

Max velocity: 250 m/sec (Slower because of the extra tank, relatively the same agility)

Mining Frigate skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to gas hold capacity
7.5% reduction in gas cloud harvester CPU/PWG needs

Exhumers skill bonus per level:
5% reduction to gas cloud harvester duration per level
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to gas cloud harvesting
+2 warp core strength


Kudos to Zaavarian the Red for helping iterate the design.

Debating the possibility of having a 4th harvester as an option if you don't want to fit the probe launcher, but seeing as the Venture base hull only has 3 ''logical'' locations to put harvesters (and because we all know the art team is lazy when it comes to non-palette-swap T2s) it seems fair as it is.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#2 - 2013-11-27 16:31:17 UTC
Quote:
2 mids
2 lows

250S / 200A / 325H Tank, resists same as T1 as for other industrials.


yup, with 4-5 gas harversters you'll probably die on 2nd or 3rd cycle from gas explosion. Have fun trying to fit a tank with these slots and 2 rigs.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#3 - 2013-11-27 17:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

yup, with 4-5 gas harversters you'll probably die on 2nd or 3rd cycle from gas explosion. Have fun trying to fit a tank with these slots and 2 rigs.


I think you're mistaking deep-core miners for gas cloud harvesters.
The Venture mines gas safely with an even thinner tank and 2 GCHs, and I have yet to see the cloud deal damage to my ship.

Also, the 2 lows are to prevent fitting a rack of 3 mining upgrades and possibly catching up to the mining barges.

Lack of tank is also intended, it's meant to be paper-thin as a balancing factor over the more cumbersome yet overtanked Skiff, although the larger hull makes fitting a DCU more than adequate for surviving one volley of alpha damage, if in structure, should anyone drop by your site in an instalocking T3.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#4 - 2013-11-27 17:47:08 UTC
i think maybe a t2 venture can be a combo scanner/harvester

2-3* highs, 1 turret 1-2* util
3 mids, so that's like prop mod buffer and survey
then 3-4 lows (keeping in touch with t2 frigs slots)

ok now the juice since its t2 it needs mods.

ore frigate skill
5%-10% bonus to cycle time per level of ore frig skill for ice ore and gas.
10% drone hp and dmg per level.

advanced ore frigate,
can be like 100% per level on gas ore and ice per level (can only fit 1 turret thats why)
now maybe 7.5% scan strength per level too (37.5% at 5) hence the spare util
+1 drone (5mbit 5m3) per level starting at 0 drones(0mbit 0m3) at level 0 (just an idea)

Hull bonus would be
+1 or 2 warp core strength, in keeping with its t1 variant. (rocket dual scram bombers could still gank them i bet)


* maybe 2nd util for a cloak? with "cannot fit cyno" so the nullbears dont whine about afk cloakers ;p

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#5 - 2013-11-27 17:56:41 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

yup, with 4-5 gas harversters you'll probably die on 2nd or 3rd cycle from gas explosion. Have fun trying to fit a tank with these slots and 2 rigs.


I think you're mistaking deep-core miners for gas cloud harvesters.
The Venture mines gas safely with an even thinner tank and 2 GCHs, and I have yet to see the cloud deal damage to my ship.

I think you are not aware that some gas clouds in low / null can (if you are unlucky) explode and damage your shipwhen you harvest them.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#6 - 2013-11-27 18:18:39 UTC
Perhaps I misunderstood, but here's what I gathered from your opening sentences:

"The venture is a perfect gas harvesting ship, therefore we need a T2 version designed specifically for gas harvesting".

Seems almost as though you're asking CCP to re-invent the wheel, but this time make it more circular...

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#7 - 2013-11-27 18:28:06 UTC
The venture is an amazing gas harvester. Truly unprecedented in it's effectiveness. The venture's 5% reduction to cycle time/level and double yield is awesome. A Gas Cloud Harvester II normally does 2 units every 40 seconds for a cyclic rate of 3 units/minute. At Mining Frigate V, each of the harvesters on the Venture pull in a cyclic 8 units/minue. Given those harvestoes are eight times the cost of the venture hull, each, this economy is brilliant.

-1, no changes need to be made.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#8 - 2013-11-27 18:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Sarah Stallman wrote:
The venture is an amazing gas harvester. Truly unprecedented in it's effectiveness. The venture's 5% reduction to cycle time/level and double yield is awesome. A Gas Cloud Harvester II normally does 2 units every 40 seconds for a cyclic rate of 3 units/minute. At Mining Frigate V, each of the harvesters on the Venture pull in a cyclic 8 units/minue. Given those harvestoes are eight times the cost of the venture hull, each, this economy is brilliant.


We're talking about making a T2 venture here. The entire point is to IMPROVE upon this design and cash in upon the fact no ship can use the 5 T2 GCHs having gas cloud harvesting at V grants you.

Also, needing 16x the value of your hull in modules just to do your job should reward you more than what the Venture currently gives you.

Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstood, but here's what I gathered from your opening sentences:

"The venture is a perfect gas harvesting ship, therefore we need a T2 version designed specifically for gas harvesting".

Seems almost as though you're asking CCP to re-invent the wheel, but this time make it more circular...


The venture is by no means a perfect gas harvester. Adequate is more like it. It lacks the hardpoints to make full use of the gas harvesting skill, and can't probe well. It thus serves only as a stepping stone to all miners except gas harvesters, who don't have any other alternative and thus have to keep using it.

Metaphorically speaking, I'm asking CCP to give us an airboat for the shallow swamp that is Gas Cloud Harvesting, because oar-speed is just dumb when everyone else gets to use engines in their boats.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#9 - 2013-11-27 19:09:38 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:

yup, with 4-5 gas harversters you'll probably die on 2nd or 3rd cycle from gas explosion. Have fun trying to fit a tank with these slots and 2 rigs.


I think you're mistaking deep-core miners for gas cloud harvesters.
The Venture mines gas safely with an even thinner tank and 2 GCHs, and I have yet to see the cloud deal damage to my ship.

I think you are not aware that some gas clouds in low / null can (if you are unlucky) explode and damage your shipwhen you harvest them.


I have looked into it and have found no mention of Fullerene or Cytoserocin dealing damage when harvested.
(The only two instances I could find were two mission gas pockets, one being a highsec lvl 4 mining mission and the other being a nullsec counterpart)

What cloud specifically are you referring to?

I guess we could slap on a shield 10% resist / level bonus of whatever damage type those clouds deal instead of the ore hold bonus, if such is the case.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#10 - 2013-11-27 20:57:50 UTC
The nullsec clouds and some low-sec ones explode periodically when harvesting, and do ridiculous amounts of damage.

As far as the harvester count bonus from the skill, having Gas Cloud Harvesting to V is far more about the T2 harvesters than it is that last extra harvester slot. Besides, a Venture can match the yield of a five harvester battlecruiser with only two.

I do not see why we need a T2 venture, there's just no practical demand for it beyond "I want more shiny!".
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#11 - 2013-11-27 21:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Scuzzy Logic
Sarah Stallman wrote:
I do not see why we need a T2 venture


For the same reason we needed the post-balance Mackinaw and Skiff?

Also, pointing out once again that gas harvesting is the only ''profession'' with no hull advancement possibilities.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#12 - 2013-11-27 22:03:16 UTC
I like the scanning bonus idea. Overall I think the idea has merit. Not so sure about it using the Exhumers skill though. Feels like its own distinct type of ship that should require specific training. Here would be my suggestions:

Quote:

Structure HP: 400
Shield HP: 450
Armor HP: 350

4 high slots (3 turret hardpoints, 0 launcher hardpoints)
4 mids
3 lows

Standard ore hold replaced by a 10,000 m3 gas hold.

PWG: 55 MW
CPU: 280 tf

Same resists as Venture

Max velocity: 250 m/sec (much slower than a standard Venture due to greatly improved tank)

Mining Frigate skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to gas hold capacity
7.5% reduction in gas cloud harvester CPU/PWG needs

Deep Space Harvester skill bonus per level:
5% reduction to gas cloud harvester duration per level
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to gas cloud harvesting
+2 warp core strength


Overall these changes would make it much tankier than a Venture while being a good bit slower and less nimble, while also making it a bit more reasonable in terms of its tank and the yields it could produce (5 turret slots? really?). It would also be a pure gas harvesting ship with gas hold, which I personally do think is a niche that needs to be filled.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#13 - 2013-11-28 00:54:32 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I like the scanning bonus idea. Overall I think the idea has merit. Not so sure about it using the Exhumers skill though. Feels like its own distinct type of ship that should require specific training. Here would be my suggestions:

Quote:

Structure HP: 400
Shield HP: 450
Armor HP: 350

4 high slots (3 turret hardpoints, 0 launcher hardpoints)
4 mids
3 lows

Standard ore hold replaced by a 10,000 m3 gas hold.

PWG: 55 MW
CPU: 280 tf

Same resists as Venture

Max velocity: 250 m/sec (much slower than a standard Venture due to greatly improved tank)

Mining Frigate skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to gas hold capacity
7.5% reduction in gas cloud harvester CPU/PWG needs

Deep Space Harvester skill bonus per level:
5% reduction to gas cloud harvester duration per level
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to gas cloud harvesting
+2 warp core strength


Overall these changes would make it much tankier than a Venture while being a good bit slower and less nimble, while also making it a bit more reasonable in terms of its tank and the yields it could produce (5 turret slots? really?). It would also be a pure gas harvesting ship with gas hold, which I personally do think is a niche that needs to be filled.



I like the overspecialization (getting a Skiff 2.0 vibe here, CCP won't like but I do), but I think if we allocate 4 mids we should drop the lows by 1.

I was also thinking of giving the hull a T2 shield resist for whatever damage type the booster nullsec gasses apparently do (explosive?) so maybe the 4th mid might not be really essential. (although the possibility of scanning mods appeals to me)

I agree that 10 effective harvesters is excessive. And with 3 hardpoints, the devs could just add a gas canister somewhere on the Venture hull and call it a day with a palette swap since it has 3 blatant hardpoints already on the hull.

Really nice iteration, I'm stealing it and putting it in the OP.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#14 - 2013-11-28 03:00:13 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
I like the scanning bonus idea. Overall I think the idea has merit. Not so sure about it using the Exhumers skill though. Feels like its own distinct type of ship that should require specific training. Here would be my suggestions:

Quote:

Structure HP: 400
Shield HP: 450
Armor HP: 350

4 high slots (3 turret hardpoints, 0 launcher hardpoints)
4 mids
3 lows

Standard ore hold replaced by a 10,000 m3 gas hold.

PWG: 55 MW
CPU: 280 tf

Same resists as Venture

Max velocity: 250 m/sec (much slower than a standard Venture due to greatly improved tank)

Mining Frigate skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to gas hold capacity
7.5% reduction in gas cloud harvester CPU/PWG needs

Deep Space Harvester skill bonus per level:
5% reduction to gas cloud harvester duration per level
7.5% increase to scan strength of probes per level

Role bonuses:
100% bonus to gas cloud harvesting
+2 warp core strength


Overall these changes would make it much tankier than a Venture while being a good bit slower and less nimble, while also making it a bit more reasonable in terms of its tank and the yields it could produce (5 turret slots? really?). It would also be a pure gas harvesting ship with gas hold, which I personally do think is a niche that needs to be filled.



I like the overspecialization (getting a Skiff 2.0 vibe here, CCP won't like but I do), but I think if we allocate 4 mids we should drop the lows by 1.

I was also thinking of giving the hull a T2 shield resist for whatever damage type the booster nullsec gasses apparently do (explosive?) so maybe the 4th mid might not be really essential. (although the possibility of scanning mods appeals to me)

I agree that 10 effective harvesters is excessive. And with 3 hardpoints, the devs could just add a gas canister somewhere on the Venture hull and call it a day with a palette swap since it has 3 blatant hardpoints already on the hull.

Really nice iteration, I'm stealing it and putting it in the OP.


Glad I could help. Too may people in this thread offering little more than negativity. More cool options in Eve is a good thing in my opinion.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#15 - 2013-11-28 07:41:34 UTC
As already mentioned, the venture is already an awesome gas harvester. Instead if a T2 venture were to be implemented it should be an ice harvester.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#16 - 2013-11-28 08:30:25 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
As already mentioned, the venture is already an awesome gas harvester. Instead if a T2 venture were to be implemented it should be an ice harvester.


Now this I could get behind.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#17 - 2013-11-28 09:58:05 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
As already mentioned, the venture is already an awesome gas harvester. Instead if a T2 venture were to be implemented it should be an ice harvester.


The Venture is all we need for gas harvesting, but we need another ice harvesting ship on top of all the Mining Barges and Exhumers we already have? That makes no sense...
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#18 - 2013-11-28 12:39:51 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
We're talking about making a T2 venture here. The entire point is to IMPROVE upon this design and cash in upon the fact no ship can use the 5 T2 GCHs having gas cloud harvesting at V grants you.

Any ship with 5 turret hardpoints and sufficient CPU can use 5 gas cloud harvesters when you have gas cloud harvesting V. The venture's skill and role bonuses make its 2 harvesters equivalent to 5 harvesters so you can get the same gas yield as from a much larger and more expensive ship.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#19 - 2013-11-28 13:00:41 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
We're talking about making a T2 venture here. The entire point is to IMPROVE upon this design and cash in upon the fact no ship can use the 5 T2 GCHs having gas cloud harvesting at V grants you.

Any ship with 5 turret hardpoints and sufficient CPU can use 5 gas cloud harvesters when you have gas cloud harvesting V. The venture's skill and role bonuses make its 2 harvesters equivalent to 5 harvesters so you can get the same gas yield as from a much larger and more expensive ship.


This. I made my first billion isk way back when sticking 5 T2 harvesters on a thorax. I could not fly anything larger at the time. It still worked.

A Venture gives you boosted harvesters as a replacement for 5 harvesters, much like the Procurer gives you a booster strip miner to replace 3 strip miners. The concept is the same, and the numbers work out. Really, the Venture is still the best gas mining ship in the game. It doesn't need to get better.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#20 - 2013-11-28 15:13:50 UTC
Zvaarian the Red wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
As already mentioned, the venture is already an awesome gas harvester. Instead if a T2 venture were to be implemented it should be an ice harvester.


The Venture is all we need for gas harvesting, but we need another ice harvesting ship on top of all the Mining Barges and Exhumers we already have? That makes no sense...


It wouldn't be nearly as good as even the mining barges, much less the exhumers. However, the regular mining lasers work for anything with turret slots and has a dedicated frigate, whereas ice mining only works on barges and exhumers. There are no other options.
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