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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#401 - 2011-11-19 06:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

If I see an Amarr ship and I want to engage as Minmatar I'm going to get as close as I can for several reasons:
1) It's where my damage is best.
2) I'm just about guaranteed to have a nuet fitted. The Amarr ship may or may not.
3) Tracking as a tertiary reason. If the Amarr ship doesn't have a TE fit, if the pilot panicked and didn't switch to MF (Huge damage reduction at close range!)- there is a difference. It adds up. I'm going to squeeze every bit of advantage I can out of the conflict.


Uh, so I'm gonna ignore your 3rd point because it basically boils down to you counting on your opponent being a moron. I'm going to ignore 1 because as a rule Minnie ships don't really outdamage Amarr ships by much if at all. That leaves you with #2 being the only valid reason to give up all your potential advantages and close on your enemy - effectively turning it into a straight up EHP/DPS race that you're almost certain to lose.

Some very quick back of the napkin math gives a standard Vagacane ~71 seconds to live against a standard 1600 plate Harbinger (Math follows). With dual neuts, I would expect you to begin to pressure the Harb's cap at 130 seconds even if he somehow ran out of cap boosters.

Quote:

def dps_profile(profile, total_dps):
sum_profile = sum(profile)
return [ x * total_dps / sum_profile for x in profile ]

def time_through_hp(dps_profiles, hp, resists):
total_dps = [ 0, 0, 0, 0 ]
for resist in range(4):
total_dps[resist] = sum([ x[resist] for x in dps_profiles ])

eff_dps = sum([total_dps[x] * (1 - resists[x]) for x in range(4) ])

return hp / eff_dps

hammerheads = dps_profile([ 0, 1, 0, 0 ], 158)
hobgoblins = dps_profile([ 0, 1, 0, 0 ], 99)
harb_guns = dps_profile([ 16.1, 11.5, 0, 0 ], 504)
cane_guns = dps_profile([ 0.0, 0.0, 4.6, 23.0 ], 596)

harbinger = [ harb_guns, hammerheads ]
hurricane = [ cane_guns, hobgoblins ]

cane_ttl = sum([
time_through_hp(harbinger, 18150,[ .125, .30, .475, .563 ]),
time_through_hp(harbinger, 5860, [ .66, .448, .363, .235 ]),
time_through_hp(harbinger, 4395, [ .6, .6, .6, .6 ]),
])

harb_ttl = sum([
time_through_hp(hurricane, 4395,[ .125, .3, .475, .563 ]),
time_through_hp(hurricane, 18382, [ .734, .655, .602, .575 ]),
time_through_hp(hurricane, 5860, [ .6, .6, .6, .6 ]),
])

print("Cane TTL: " + str(cane_ttl))
print("Harb TTL: " + str(harb_ttl))


>>>
Cane TTL: 71.1842267612
Harb TTL: 98.6128031047

Of course, the picture changes when we start looking at Hail sporting dual web Hurricanes but at that point you've just sacrificed everything anyone's complaining about - so I'm just going to just shrug.

-Liang

Ed: Ok, I think I'm about done there. It now accounts for resist layers and drone damage types.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#402 - 2011-11-19 17:36:03 UTC
The quotes really do mess with whitespace.
Oylmpia
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#403 - 2011-11-20 02:05:52 UTC
[code] tags would be nice.. maybe in next forum update? :)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#404 - 2011-11-20 03:25:49 UTC
Oylmpia wrote:
[code] tags would be nice.. maybe in next forum update? :)


Preserve whitespace, monospace font, and collapsible like spoiler tags? Yes please!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#405 - 2011-11-21 00:47:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
post


Aside from the fact that I'd load barrage, overheat the point and kite the Harb to death in that very hypothetical scenario (most likely, I wouldn't engage at all), I don't have a reaon to doubt your maths.

However, the scenario entirely disregards the fact that a Vagacane simply will disengage and warp off if the pilot realizes the fight is not going well - a Harb is far less likely to go anywhere.

So it's either:

- The Harb pilot is a moron (most people are, after all) -> Cane wins.
- The Harb Pilot isn't -> Cane warps off.


For the Cane, it's either win or tie, for the Harb, it's either lose or tie. This problem becomes more apparent if more ships are involved - most of my cane gang/fleet will get away if the poo hits the fan - my Harb gang wont. Add to that the number of possible engagements on a roam - solo or gang - Canes almost allways have the option to run - Harbs don't.
As an FC, chosing between Canes and Harbs is a no-brainer.
That's why you see Cane blobs, but no Harb blobs.

Gank and Tank in that particular scenario may appear balanced as such, however the fact that the cane completely dictates the rules of engagement and has the advantage of capless all dame-type guns is entirely neglected.

Therefore, Laser- (and of course Hybrid) ships should vastly out-dps projectiles to compensate for that back-breaking disadvantage.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#406 - 2011-11-21 01:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Aside from the fact that I'd load barrage, overheat the point and kite the Harb to death in that very hypothetical scenario (most likely, I wouldn't engage at all), I don't have a reaon to doubt your maths.


A Harb does more DPS at point range than a Cane does. By far. A Cane will probably lose a DPS/EHP race to a (plated) Harb at 0. It will definitely lose at 24km.

Quote:
That's why you see Cane blobs, but no Harb blobs.


The only reason you see AC Cane blobs is 2x neuts. And even then the fleet comp is literally called Welpfleet, because it sucks for standup fighting and they know it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#407 - 2011-11-21 01:17:43 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
post


Aside from the fact that I'd load barrage, overheat the point and kite the Harb to death in that very hypothetical scenario (most likely, I wouldn't engage at all), I don't have a reaon to doubt your maths.

However, the scenario entirely disregards the fact that a Vagacane simply will disengage and warp off if the pilot realizes the fight is not going well - a Harb is far less likely to go anywhere.

So it's either:

- The Harb pilot is a moron (most people are, after all) -> Cane wins.
- The Harb Pilot isn't -> Cane warps off.


Yes, I was addressing the idea that the could somehow "thread the needle" with the Harbinger and win. Its really very simple - your options with a Vagacane are to engage at range with inferior damage and hope the Harbinger has terrible skills, or just not engage at all (preferable). I mean, think about it - at range he will dramatically outdamage you even if you load up Barrage. That's what everyone seems to forget about lasers - they are not gimped up close and they are second to none at range.

Quote:

For the Cane, it's either win or tie, for the Harb, it's either lose or tie. This problem becomes more apparent if more ships are involved - most of my cane gang/fleet will get away if the poo hits the fan - my Harb gang wont. Add to that the number of possible engagements on a roam - solo or gang - Canes almost allways have the option to run - Harbs don't.
As an FC, chosing between Canes and Harbs is a no-brainer.
That's why you see Cane blobs, but no Harb blobs.

Gank and Tank in that particular scenario may appear balanced as such, however the fact that the cane completely dictates the rules of engagement and has the advantage of capless all dame-type guns is entirely neglected.

Therefore, Laser- (and of course Hybrid) ships should vastly out-dps projectiles to compensate for that back-breaking disadvantage.


Honestly, this seems pretty uncompelling to me. A mock engagement of homogeneous fleets of Canes vs Harbingers would leave absolutely no question who wins - and its not going to be the canes. You are of course correct about the Hurricanes having a better chance of disengaging, but I feel that its fine that they pay for this in tank instead of gank.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#408 - 2011-11-21 01:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Aside from the fact that I'd load barrage, overheat the point and kite the Harb to death in that very hypothetical scenario (most likely, I wouldn't engage at all), I don't have a reaon to doubt your maths.


A Harb does more DPS at point range than a Cane does. By far. A Cane will probably lose a DPS/EHP race to a (plated) Harb at 0. It will definitely lose at 24km.



That's why I wrote 'overheat point' - thanks to lasers crappy falloff, check the numbers again at 26 km (about the distance I'd aim for, since 28.8 would be a bit unrealistic), the cane would win. Of course it would take ages and since a single harb without friends in close vicininty is rather unlikely, I wouldn't engage in most cases.

Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
That's why you see Cane blobs, but no Harb blobs.


The only reason you see AC Cane blobs is 2x neuts. And even then the fleet comp is literally called Welpfleet, because it sucks for standup fighting and they know it.




They do - but then, they don't have to do standup fighting. Either you find something you can take and take it or you just disengage and move on. Worst case unless the brain-bee makes a mistake: You lose a few stragglers.
You can't lose, really.
Besides I think there are psychological reasons for calling it welp-fleet to get more people to take part, but that's OT here.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#409 - 2011-11-21 01:43:09 UTC
So, what!? That 's a shield-cane v armour Harbinger. Fleet of shield-Harbingers over shield-Hurricanes all day or Drakes...

Shield has its advantage over less mobile armour ships. Anyway, lasers are still superior in conventional fleets. Minmatar Skirmish all day.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#410 - 2011-11-21 01:44:06 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:

That's why I wrote 'overheat point' - thanks to lasers crappy falloff, check the numbers again at 26 km (about the distance I'd aim for, since 28.8 would be a bit unrealistic), the cane would win. Of course it would take ages and since a single harb without friends in close vicininty is rather unlikely, I wouldn't engage in most cases.


This is a pretty silly argument to make TBH. Even if he doesn't even shoot back, you're going to burn your point out long before you actually kill him. Furthermore, if you're that far out all he has to do is move a little bit and push you out of point range. Just drop the "Minmatar must be nerfed into the stone age of uselessness" front for a second and be real with us. Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#411 - 2011-11-21 02:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
By the way. This is a new school fleet Harbinger. Some heavy pulse lasers and a 800mm plate instead (more range and damage).

Amarr is a golden army of death rainbows. Their armour fleets are still very viable in the most common engagement ranges in game.


[Harbinger, Hoplite]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
F85 Peripheral Damage System I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Warp Disruptor II

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
[empty high slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

EDIT: I confuse me too. I'm battoling many disabilities... I was saying some use 800mm plate harbingers with heavy pulses and other use the setup I posted. Either way. The Harbinger is still viable in shield or armour setups. Although heavy pulses will damage ships well up to 40,0o0meters.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#412 - 2011-11-21 02:05:15 UTC
Erm. What? Does it have a 800mm plate or a 1600mm plate? Your post is confusing me. :-/

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#413 - 2011-11-21 02:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Liang Nuren wrote:


That's what everyone seems to forget about lasers - they are not gimped up close and they are second to none at range.


In fleet engagements they are gimped at range - ACs are able to deal (admittedly nimble) DPS way beyond scorch range and in gangs with pilots following primaries properly, that would make the cane fleet win. I admit that's theorycrafting, as I've never seen a Harb fleet fighting a Cane fleet (because nobody flies harb fleets for whatever weird reason ;)).

Quote:


Honestly, this seems pretty uncompelling to me. A mock engagement of homogeneous fleets of Canes vs Harbingers would leave absolutely no question who wins - and its not going to be the canes. You are of course correct about the Hurricanes having a better chance of disengaging, but I feel that its fine that they pay for this in tank instead of gank.

-Liang



The question from an FCs POV is: Why would a gang of Canes fight an equally numbered gang of Harbs? If my scout reports an equally sized Harb gang, I wont engage unless I know all my pilots have barrage in their holds and know to bounce to a safespot as soon as they take a sliver of shield damage and the Harb gang is comprised of idiots (most likely, since they bring a gang of Harbingers).


In general, it's a far bigger problem than most people think: If two fleets, one comprised of harbs and one comprised of canes circled each other within a couple of systems like sharks (subjunctive again, because I've never seen plated harb gangs), the Cane gang will eventually catch up if it wants to. The Harb gang will neither catch up if it wants to engage, nor will it get away if they're outnumbered.

Again - a win/run situation for Canes. For the Harb gang it's either:

- Cane-gang FC is a complete fuckup and engages without significant advantage in numbers-> you win
- You have the numerical advantage -> Cane gang runs, you held the field today, no killmails, everyone is frustrated, tomorrow you have x percent pilots less loging on due to that.
- Cane gang has the numerical advantage -> hopefully, you're not too far from highsec/own stations/POSes, because otherwise you're all gonna die.

Put yourself into the situation of the FC and you'll see why nobody runs Harb gangs.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#414 - 2011-11-21 02:41:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

That's why I wrote 'overheat point' - thanks to lasers crappy falloff, check the numbers again at 26 km (about the distance I'd aim for, since 28.8 would be a bit unrealistic), the cane would win. Of course it would take ages and since a single harb without friends in close vicininty is rather unlikely, I wouldn't engage in most cases.


This is a pretty silly argument to make TBH. Even if he doesn't even shoot back, you're going to burn your point out long before you actually kill him. Furthermore, if you're that far out all he has to do is move a little bit and push you out of point range. Just drop the "Minmatar must be nerfed into the stone age of uselessness" front for a second and be real with us. Roll

-Liang



2.8 km buffer is enough from a vagacane vs a 1600 mm plate harb from my experience. And of course I don't start pointing as soon as the fight starts. Most likely - if at all - I'd just start shooting at him from range for a bit and wait for local to spike.

If I OH+point from the start, localspike is on my side ;).

As for being real: You keep going on about about solo equal class engagements at the point when both ships have committed to a fight which doesn't really happen on TQ.

Imho, PvP has mostly ended at the point where both fleets engage - after that it's just duking it out.

It's much like Poker - the real game takes place before you call - except when flying Minmatar, you can bail out from calling as soon as you know you have the inferior hand - even if the other side has an ace like a cyno and titan-bridging fleet up their sleeve...

Makes me wonder if you're just doing EFT-maths (absolutely no offense intended and you're probably better at it than I am) or really run the gangs...

If you're real with us, please show us some examples of the successfull Harbinger gangs anyone has run during the past two years.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Songbird
#415 - 2011-11-21 03:04:27 UTC
Can the "nerf minmatar" people state 1 more time for the record the exact nature of the nerfs they're fighting for?

Is it "nerf AC's since minmatar are shield tanked"? Or is it nerf the speed of minmatar ships since they're shield tanked? Is it nerf shield tanking since it has no penalties to speed?

What exactly is it that you're fighting for?
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#416 - 2011-11-21 03:15:26 UTC
Songbird wrote:
Can the "nerf minmatar" people state 1 more time for the record the exact nature of the nerfs they're fighting for?

Is it "nerf AC's since minmatar are shield tanked"? Or is it nerf the speed of minmatar ships since they're shield tanked? Is it nerf shield tanking since it has no penalties to speed?

What exactly is it that you're fighting for?


After 21 pages? Lol

Cut the falloff bonus on tracking enhancers to match the optimal bonus.

OR

Cut the falloff bonus on ships that have them from 10% to 5%.

The blaster damage and tracking buff on sissi is probably sufficient for me to give up on the 9% DPS bit in the OP. I don't feel like running up to a blaster frigate at point blank range in a claw or wolf and slapping a nuet on it is a smart strategy. And yes, it really was that bad.
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#417 - 2011-11-21 03:28:40 UTC
Minmatar is fine.
Songbird
#418 - 2011-11-21 04:06:55 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

After 21 pages? Lol

Cut the falloff bonus on tracking enhancers to match the optimal bonus.

OR

Cut the falloff bonus on ships that have them from 10% to 5%.

The blaster damage and tracking buff on sissi is probably sufficient for me to give up on the 9% DPS bit in the OP. I don't feel like running up to a blaster frigate at point blank range in a claw or wolf and slapping a nuet on it is a smart strategy. And yes, it really was that bad.


So cut off the 30% bonus in half, " cause 15% more falloff is exactly the same as 15% more optimal" (this btw will nerf blasters too you realize) OR nerf ...what? Wolf, vaga, tornado, sleipnir, and loki? It's those 5 minmatar (mostly t2 and t3 )ships that destroy all of eve?

Interesting - and on the last page all I was reading was how cane could disengage at will.

I think all your pro nerf people should get together, order a few beers and come to an understanding what is it exactly the thing about minmatar ships that you hate the most.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#419 - 2011-11-21 04:57:57 UTC
Songbird wrote:

So cut off the 30% bonus in half, " cause 15% more falloff is exactly the same as 15% more optimal" (this btw will nerf blasters too you realize) OR nerf ...what? Wolf, vaga, tornado, sleipnir, and loki? It's those 5 minmatar (mostly t2 and t3 )ships that destroy all of eve?

Interesting - and on the last page all I was reading was how cane could disengage at will.

I think all your pro nerf people should get together, order a few beers and come to an understanding what is it exactly the thing about minmatar ships that you hate the most.


Basic line of thought is that if you can disengage at will, you shouldn't be able to shoot as far as Minmatar currently can. And it really comes down to a few culpable ships. You forgot to mention the dramiel, cynabal, and Machariel. Cool
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#420 - 2011-11-21 05:40:21 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:

In fleet engagements they are gimped at range - ACs are able to deal (admittedly nimble) DPS way beyond scorch range and in gangs with pilots following primaries properly, that would make the cane fleet win. I admit that's theorycrafting, as I've never seen a Harb fleet fighting a Cane fleet (because nobody flies harb fleets for whatever weird reason ;)).

The question from an FCs POV is: Why would a gang of Canes fight an equally numbered gang of Harbs? If my scout reports an equally sized Harb gang, I wont engage unless I know all my pilots have barrage in their holds and know to bounce to a safespot as soon as they take a sliver of shield damage and the Harb gang is comprised of idiots (most likely, since they bring a gang of Harbingers).

In general, it's a far bigger problem than most people think: If two fleets, one comprised of harbs and one comprised of canes circled each other within a couple of systems like sharks (subjunctive again, because I've never seen plated harb gangs), the Cane gang will eventually catch up if it wants to. The Harb gang will neither catch up if it wants to engage, nor will it get away if they're outnumbered.

Again - a win/run situation for Canes. ... Put yourself into the situation of the FC and you'll see why nobody runs Harb gangs.


A few comments:
- I think you meant to say pathetic, not nimble because that just makes no sense. Nimble is like.. jack jumped over the candle stick without burning his arse.
- The Vagacane is spending 2 slots on range (and gimping its tank and ability to disengage). It shouldn't be surprising than in a balanced situation the Harbinger is better at straight up fighting while the Cane (in a mostly ranged configuration) is stuck nibbling at the edges of the engagement.
- The Hurricane does worse DPS than the Harbinger - up close and at range. Up close tends to imply a very small gang (< 10 people probably) while at range tends to imply that the gang is of significantly larger size. In a really small gang, you just get rocked because you're up close with someone that's got way better DPS/EHP than you. In a larger gang, you get rocked because they can engage at further ranges than you with superior DPS. Either way - solo or not - the Binger is a better choice.
- I find it ******* hilarious that the Nerf Minmatar crowd first claims that because the Hurricane is better in a straight up brawl that projectiles need nerfed. Then when shown that this is patently false, they say that it needs a nerf because its too good at range when fitting range mods!
- It is kinda funny, but a Harbinger is more than capable of hitting out beyond even your overheated disruptor range - and staying in optimal to do it. Furthermore, a binger in this configuration has the same tank, the same or similar ability to disengage, and superior damage.

I honestly have no choice but to think that you simply don't know why people fly the Cane over the Binger - because its not anything that's really been mentioned here in this thread. IMO, at least as far as the Binger/Cane debate goes, it comes down to two things:
- The Binger is a couple percent harder to fit. This is the difference between any noob with the battlecruiser skill flying your fit and F-Off if you don't have AWU4+. Basically, when you need to get 5000 people into one ship kind, you need this.
- Lasers use cap - a lot of it. This can really hurt you in a long protracted drawn out fight... such as trying to chew through the 100-200 man "small gangs" that roam 0.0. (FWIW, if the size is wrong don't blame me - blame the people that actually think something so ******* braindead and keep poasting it. I don't do 0.0 anymore - WHs and low sec for me.)

Large Collidable Object wrote:

2.8 km buffer is enough from a vagacane vs a 1600 mm plate harb from my experience. And of course I don't start pointing as soon as the fight starts. Most likely - if at all - I'd just start shooting at him from range for a bit and wait for local to spike.


So basically, either he just warps off when you won't engage or he pushes you out of disruptor range and warps off. Both of these are really easy to do, though I admit that it may be a bit of a lost art these days. Either way, you don't get a kill because you're pussy footing about trying to make sure that you don't die to his superior up close and projected DPS. Seems balanced, TBH.

Quote:
Imho, PvP has mostly ended at the point where both fleets engage - after that it's just duking it out.


This just makes me sad. I'm totally ok with Minmatar nerfs, but I'd like them to be for the right reasons. Your reasons - or at least this one - are really ******* bad. No offense.

Quote:

Makes me wonder if you're just doing EFT-maths (absolutely no offense intended and you're probably better at it than I am) or really run the gangs...

If you're real with us, please show us some examples of the successfull Harbinger gangs anyone has run during the past two years.


Its very simple
- I've easily got 2k kills this year alone, and none of it's that trained monkey pressing F1 blobbing bullshit 0.0 fags do. So I'd say I actually do PVP.
- It's very easy to find medium laser fleets - though you probably won't find Harbinger fleets. Honestly, why anyone would fly BC fleets when they have any intention of actually winning a serious engagement is beyond me. IMO, Cane fleets are called "welp fleets" for a really good reason.- Lasers simply do better DPS. You don't seem to dispute this, so I'm curious why you're trying to discredit me?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.