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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#221 - 2013-11-28 06:56:07 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Vizvig wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


90% webs are not OP. The fact that you need to spend a sh*tload of ISK on expensive

Pay2win

Now shut up.


Dominix vs Rattlesnake
Both are drone boats, One of them has better tank, better dps, basically better everything, and it also cost more, alot more
pay to win ?

In eve you can pay and increase capability to win.

are i wrong?
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2013-11-28 06:57:48 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Vizvig wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


90% webs are not OP. The fact that you need to spend a sh*tload of ISK on expensive

Pay2win

Now shut up.


Dominix vs Rattlesnake
Both are drone boats, One of them has better tank, better dps, basically better everything, and it also cost more, alot more
pay to win ?

In eve you can pay and increase capability to win.

are i wrong?


so if i buy a DD with better web mechanics, i ?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#223 - 2013-11-28 07:15:21 UTC
That's actually not what "Pay to Win" means at all. Please stop contributing to the general ignorance of the populace.
Oxide Ammar
#224 - 2013-11-28 08:51:30 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Dread ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2013-11-28 09:19:58 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Dread ?



Yes that is what he claimed. Obviously some people have problems understanding the concept of "conversation context" to realize that dreads are not on the same plane this conversation is about and that all players with IQ over 30 know that when you say a ship is best DPS they mean ships of that class. OTherwise everyoen would say daredevil has a horrible DPS, because it can be simply outdpsed by a typhoon!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#226 - 2013-11-28 09:21:50 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

You originally mentioned that webs are the most OP EWAR out there. I'm pretty sure most people would disagree. Range-bonused webs? Maybe. But you weren't even referring to those.

I'm pretty sure eliminating the opponent's ability to target you in the first place, or activate any tackle on you whatsoever, will win more fights than pure range control. What's range control if you can't even shoot? Talk about lack of reason.



Webs are indeed one of the most powerful bonuses. Just check the effect

Ship with speed 1000ms. Normal web reduces to 400 ms. BOnused web reduces to 100ms. The bonus makes the modules 4 times more effective. I cannot remember other bonuses that makes any module EFFECT 4 times more powerful.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2013-11-28 09:24:08 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Actually..

Webs in general are rather overpowered compared to other EWAR.


I assume you mean only range-bonused webs?



Range bonus depending on the size of the ship and the weapons it uses is less powerful than web strenght . On other sevecnarios the range is more important. IF you use blasters you are goign to get very close, so a 40km range web would not mean as much for serpentis as the web strenght does.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2013-11-28 09:29:23 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.


What? You really beleive that?


Curse not bonused by links? It is bonused by the same squirmish links, by siege links ( since most curses are shield tanked) and By information warfare links.

Just check the damm ammount of track disruption that you can achieve using a good information warfare link.

Peopel like to compalin about the squirmish links because they are too narrowminded to realize the other ones are as powerful as it is, the advatnage of squimish links is that they bennefit almost all ships, while the other links bennefit specific groups of ships. HTat is the whoel reasonfor the faulty perception of links power.


You can be sure that on a gang made to use the power of information links, they are as powerful as squimish ones, if not more.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kane Fenris
NWP
#229 - 2013-11-28 09:32:28 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.



people loose their minds now cause they have learned as soon as you post some "proposed" changes it is to late to change something meaningfull about it
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#230 - 2013-11-28 10:21:58 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.



people loose their minds now cause they have learned as soon as you post some "proposed" changes it is to late to change something meaningfull about it


The word that describes this is soundboarding -

A person whose reactions serve as a measure of the acceptability of an idea or course of action
A person or group that propagates ideas or opinions

Since this idea crept up on the forums, I would have to conclude that CCP are trying to gauge our reaction to this change.... 12 pages speaks for itself.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2013-11-28 11:16:41 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.


What? You really beleive that?


Curse not bonused by links? It is bonused by the same squirmish links, by siege links ( since most curses are shield tanked) and By information warfare links.

Just check the damm ammount of track disruption that you can achieve using a good information warfare link.

Peopel like to compalin about the squirmish links because they are too narrowminded to realize the other ones are as powerful as it is, the advatnage of squimish links is that they bennefit almost all ships, while the other links bennefit specific groups of ships. HTat is the whoel reasonfor the faulty perception of links power.


You can be sure that on a gang made to use the power of information links, they are as powerful as squimish ones, if not more.


Neither the neuts or the drones derive any kind of bonus from links, not even indirectly like turrets do. These are its primary weapon systems.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#232 - 2013-11-28 11:26:04 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.


What? You really beleive that?


Curse not bonused by links? It is bonused by the same squirmish links, by siege links ( since most curses are shield tanked) and By information warfare links.

Just check the damm ammount of track disruption that you can achieve using a good information warfare link.

Peopel like to compalin about the squirmish links because they are too narrowminded to realize the other ones are as powerful as it is, the advatnage of squimish links is that they bennefit almost all ships, while the other links bennefit specific groups of ships. HTat is the whoel reasonfor the faulty perception of links power.


You can be sure that on a gang made to use the power of information links, they are as powerful as squimish ones, if not more.


Neither the neuts or the drones derive any kind of bonus from links, not even indirectly like turrets do. These are its primary weapon systems.


Not even indirectly? So a linky curse has no advantages over a regular one?

Alright...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#233 - 2013-11-28 13:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
As someone already have said. If someone thinks a 90% webber is to powerfull for a ship that can only fight inside 18 km, they clearly haven't tried ECM and Damps.

Again, Serpentis ships is about applying DPS. And guess what you have to do to be able to apply DPS?

Yes, you have to web alot.

Having high DPS and the ability to hit others harder than other ships because of the web bonus is the only advantage the Vindicator have. Don't take that away as that will make the Vindicator useless for what it's made for doing.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2013-11-28 13:51:00 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
As someone already have said. If someone thinks a 90% webber is to powerfull for a ship that can only fight inside 18 km, they clearly haven't tried ECM and Damps.

Again, Serpentis ships is about applying DPS. And guess what you have to do to be able to apply DPS?

Yes, you have to web alot.

Having high DPS and the ability to hit others harder than other ships because of the web bonus is the only advantage the Vindicator have. Don't take that away as that will make the Vindicator useless for what it's made for doing.



again the problem is that no other bonus makes a module 4 times stronger.Just reducign the bonus from 10% per level to 8% per level would make the enemy ship be 40% faster than with current bonus. That is the level of power of this bonus.

A nerf to like 8% per level would make a huge difference,

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#235 - 2013-11-28 13:53:36 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.


What? You really beleive that?


Curse not bonused by links? It is bonused by the same squirmish links, by siege links ( since most curses are shield tanked) and By information warfare links.

Just check the damm ammount of track disruption that you can achieve using a good information warfare link.

Peopel like to compalin about the squirmish links because they are too narrowminded to realize the other ones are as powerful as it is, the advatnage of squimish links is that they bennefit almost all ships, while the other links bennefit specific groups of ships. HTat is the whoel reasonfor the faulty perception of links power.


You can be sure that on a gang made to use the power of information links, they are as powerful as squimish ones, if not more.


Neither the neuts or the drones derive any kind of bonus from links, not even indirectly like turrets do. These are its primary weapon systems.


Bonuses a curse recive from links include speed, signature, tackle range (very relevant to use its NEUT RANGE BONUS effectively). Shield resistances, shield repair speed, armro resit if you use strange fits, sensr strenght, and mostly important huge boost to track dirsruptor.

Not my fault you cannot grasp concepts that are not rubbed direclty into your face.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zamyslinski
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#236 - 2013-11-28 14:15:30 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Not my fault you cannot grasp concepts that are not rubbed direclty into your face.



Hes a goon, what did you expect?
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-11-28 14:19:02 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

You originally mentioned that webs are the most OP EWAR out there. I'm pretty sure most people would disagree. Range-bonused webs? Maybe. But you weren't even referring to those.

I'm pretty sure eliminating the opponent's ability to target you in the first place, or activate any tackle on you whatsoever, will win more fights than pure range control. What's range control if you can't even shoot? Talk about lack of reason.



Webs are indeed one of the most powerful bonuses.


I never said bonused webs aren't very powerful. He mentioned unbonused webs being too powerful (he was comparing it to other unbonused forms of EWAR).

Bonused webs are indeed powerful, as they should be - it's a freaking EWAR BONUS. Webs have the least range, but you pay for that with power.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#238 - 2013-11-28 14:20:51 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
The problem isn't the web bonus. Not at all. The Vindi is one of a small handful of ships that can look a larger fleet in the eye and then black their eyes, in an outright, point blank fight. Not resorting to nano-snipy-crap. A real, go big or go home brawl. It's a very important ship for small -> Mid gang PVP, because it allows the fleets willing and able to use them the ability to take fights they wouldn't otherwise even be able to think about taking.



The problem MIGHT be in the way webs stack, and the price tag. A properly fit Vindicator is an expensive ship. It represents a significant investment of SP, isk, and commitment to a fight. It SHOULD be able to stand up to larger fleets.

But even in that, vindi's can be undone by ECM. They can be damped into nothingness. They can be neuted. They already have a fairly low lock range.. And they're already a BS, they take a while to lock anyway. With their Commitment to their webs, they often do not fit a cap booster, or if they do, certainly not an ECCM or sensor booster. They are slow, slow slow ships. Even with links, faction, and overheat, their effective web range is still less than half the distance ECM or damps could shut a ship down from. If a Vindicator wants to get anywhere on the battlefield, it pretty much HAS to MWD. That MWD+ a few TP's are going to make it's signature radius absolutely huge. So Even TP's are effective on vindi's, though not as 'right now' effective as just jamming it, still effective.


There is just no reason to change this.

Dev's are saying 'oh well you don't have to lose your minds....'

Well how many pages did we have to get through on the gallente BS thread before Dev's listened when we said a 6 low 5 midslot Megathron was a bad idea.... How long is the marauders thread?

Last I checked, the whole point of F & I forum section was to discuss features and ideas.

Well... CCP has floated the idea of removing the serpentis web bonus.

The community is responding by and large with a resounding 'NO.'

We don't WANT every ship to be a drake with a different skin. You guys did well with the Frigates and cruisers... but since those it's kinda been mis step after mis step.



This change will really really hurt the small to midsize alliances, in particularly in low sec. We rely on our Vindicators and pirate/faction BS to fight people who would otherwise just bury us under drakes. Those are some of our most important ships for counter blob warfare. It's not because they are ridiculously OP Nerf pls! It's because they are well designed, role specific ships that we have to be very selective about when we field and do not field, because they are a significant commitment in isk and material to a fight. Taking those ships out of our arsenal is pretty much going to guarantee that the bigger blob always wins.

Please stop nerfbatting everything that is decent and replacing it with a fall off/trackingfire rate and MWD signature reduction bonus.

Variety, is a very, very good thing.





My opinion anyway....



A really good post Sir +1


Yup. Added to OP, +1
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2013-11-28 14:27:00 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Vizvig wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


90% webs are not OP. The fact that you need to spend a sh*tload of ISK on expensive

Pay2win

Now shut up.


Dominix vs Rattlesnake
Both are drone boats, One of them has better tank, better dps, basically better everything, and it also cost more, alot more
pay to win ?

In eve you can pay and increase capability to win.

are i wrong?

You guys don't understand what Pay To Win means.

That is NOT pay to win.

Pay To Win is when you can buy gear with real money that is NOT available with in-game money. In other words, there is no other way to get those items without paying real money.

That is the VERY DEFINITION of Pay To Win, and why everyone was freaking out with gold ammo, etc.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#240 - 2013-11-28 14:27:13 UTC
Zamyslinski wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Not my fault you cannot grasp concepts that are not rubbed direclty into your face.



Hes a goon, what did you expect?



Good point. I humbly accept your demonstration of wisdom.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"