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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#161 - 2013-11-27 16:38:51 UTC
MAJOR LeeConfuzd wrote:
Please quit calling it 'rebalancing', its 'nerfing' ..rebalancing would require adding a weight to the 'other' side of the scale from time to time. LEAVE THE VINDI BE...


Major, you know better than most what this nerf will mean, and how many will be affected.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#162 - 2013-11-27 16:43:10 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Fey Ivory wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

Is it that hard to understand that everyone who actually flies these ships doesn't want them to simply be a faster Navy Mega with a bit more DPS? Maybe you do for your blob gangs, but guess what - the vast majority of people who actually fly these things for any significant length of time understand the importance of the web in balancing engagements.



Dude.. stop making yourself look so stupid. Find me a single ocasion on the last 1 year where I engaged someone in a blob. I dont think there are many cases with more than 5 people in the gang!

Now shut up if you are unable to even read killboards.



I myself is a fairly crappy pilot... but you seem atleast on your talks seem skilled, so how about put your words into action... if the DD is so ower powered as you say, how about you fit a few up and set up a date with some CAS pilots, that roam daily down in null, and engage in small group and fragite/cruiser engagements, since its so ower powered as you say, you obviously be able to take on a few hamless npc corp pilots, now wouldent you ? Blink

ps Nyan, if let me know if there be any fights, ill pay for your scrap buckets

They roam with Loki / Claymore links... They would never do that. The problem here are links, not the Daredevil itself.


Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#163 - 2013-11-27 16:46:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.


So I'm kind of curious:

First the "5% shield/armor resistance per level" bonus was surprisingly OP. I'll grant you that, it was solid. Now, the web bonue is OP. How long before "5%damage per level" or "5% ROF bonus per level" is OP?

Eventually you have to look at everything in context and say, "Is this OP or not?" And if you nerf everything else around it, of course it will be OP. Serpentis ships are great the way they are.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#164 - 2013-11-27 16:51:47 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
90% webs are a ridiculously overpowered bonus.

Especially on a ship capable of fielding 300k+ ehp.

Massive smack with the nerfbat would serve well. I think 90% web cruisers are alright, because while they act like massive force multipliers they are relatively easy to kill compared to the battleships.

I don't actually think that the Daredevil is that overpowered unless its run with links.. With links its absolutely stupid but without them its just very good.

So bash the Vindi, adjust the cruisers gently, and slap the frigs a bit.

Again, the problem is LINKS. Sure, the Vindi could use a tank nerf, the Vigilant a small buff, but make skirmish links less effective. Skirmish links work too well with new ewar frigs (70km webs on Hyena, similar disrupt range on Keres) and those need to be nerfed.



On the daredevil yes.

On the vindi its incredibly overpowered without links as well.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#165 - 2013-11-27 16:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#166 - 2013-11-27 16:57:09 UTC
The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2013-11-27 17:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.


Yeah, the range you get when you combine faction webs, skirmish links, and overloading actually is the problem. 15km 90% webs are fine, 25km 90% webs are stupidly broken. The latter lets you full-stop someone outside of the effective range of all medium-sized weapons.

They can't nerf links because the current power level is designed around them being on grid, except they don't know how to code that yet. If they drop the nerf-hammer now they'll essentially take away like 3 million SP from a bunch of characters and cause alt-accounts used for OGB to unsub.
hujciwdupe22
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2013-11-27 17:05:55 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.



Ehm...


So F..... what????

Tell me?

the utter stupidness of folks on the forums is just plain crazy,

All but whining,

Never heard that webs are unbalanced before this topic,

Fozzy and Rise stop rebalancing whole ship classes, keep it to single ships that needs some love,

and focus on lag or something that really need attention,
hujciwdupe22
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-11-27 17:12:45 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.


Yeah, the range you get when you combine faction webs, skirmish links, and overloading actually is the problem. 15km 90% webs are fine, 25km 90% webs are stupidly broken. The latter lets you full-stop someone outside of the effective range of all medium-sized weapons.

They can't nerf links because the current power level is designed around them being on grid, except they don't know how to code that yet. If they drop the nerf-hammer now they'll essentially take away like 3 million SP from a bunch of characters and cause alt-accounts used for OGB to unsub.



another dude,

webs got big range,

again so what about it?

arazus can stop ships aswell, not mentioning rapiers or frigs and ceptors who catch you even before you land on the gate,

or the worst scenario all af them at once + two vigilants,

you got cought becouse someone suprised you, outplayed or you were stupid, i dont see anything wrong in that


Boosters are a valid mechanic, giving advantage ppl who are using it,

Train a toon and use it aswell if youre so mad about it, its eve online not you-online
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2013-11-27 17:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Sofia Wolf wrote:
The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.


It is most certainly NOT unbalanced.
Looks like someone discovered the PURPOSE of webs. Congratulations! They are designed not only to slow targets down, but to make targets much easier to hit.
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#171 - 2013-11-27 17:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sofia Wolf
hujciwdupe22 wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.



Ehm...


So F..... what????

Tell me?

the utter stupidness of folks on the forums is just plain crazy,

All but whining,

Never heard that webs are unbalanced before this topic,

Fozzy and Rise stop rebalancing whole ship classes, keep it to single ships that needs some love,

and focus on lag or something that really need attention,





Say you want to improve ability of your ship to track close orbiting targets what are your options?

tracking enhancers: 9.5 % improved tracking
tracking computer: 30% bonus with scripts
target painter: 30% improved tracking
ship with tracking bonus: 37% at lvl 5
meta 4 or 5 web: 150% effective improved tracking from 60% speed reduction

So yes, I would say there is an argument to be made about common web being too good compared to other alternatives when it comes to handling speed/sig tanking targets.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#172 - 2013-11-27 17:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Sofia Wolf wrote:
The way web affects eve damage and hit probability formulas 90% speed reduction web is most certainly owerpowered. For example if we use web to control angular velocity of target ,90% web compared to 60% web, is equivalent of 400% tracking speed bonus. Normal tracking bonuses at 7.5% / level come only at pathetic 35% tracking at lvl 5, order of magnitude more inferior then that web bonus.

Similarly if that web bonus is used to control range in 1v1 AB frig fight, each with normal speed of 1 km/s, that gives 300 m/s speed advantage to 90% web frig. Even if other frig has dual webs (~75% speed reduction) it could still not compete with single 90% web bonus.

In fact one could argue that even default web effect of up to 60% speed reduction is unbalanced, and 90% most certainly is so.


a great post here with some rational maths and logic to explain why 90% webs are OP and even 60% webs are too strong compared too every other tracking bonus/modules .... i would advocate nerfing at least 10% off all webs so a max of 50% on T2 webs only which should require lv5 prop jamming skill too use too accentuate how strong a mechanic webs are too tracking targets..

T1 web .... 37.5% 9.5km base range
meta 1-4 ...... 40 - 45% ... with different roles like less cpu, cap usage, more range etc..
T2 web ... 50% with slight range reduction to 9km

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#173 - 2013-11-27 17:30:18 UTC
hujciwdupe22 wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.


Yeah, the range you get when you combine faction webs, skirmish links, and overloading actually is the problem. 15km 90% webs are fine, 25km 90% webs are stupidly broken. The latter lets you full-stop someone outside of the effective range of all medium-sized weapons.

They can't nerf links because the current power level is designed around them being on grid, except they don't know how to code that yet. If they drop the nerf-hammer now they'll essentially take away like 3 million SP from a bunch of characters and cause alt-accounts used for OGB to unsub.



another dude,

webs got big range,

again so what about it?

arazus can stop ships aswell, not mentioning rapiers or frigs and ceptors who catch you even before you land on the gate,

or the worst scenario all af them at once + two vigilants,

you got cought becouse someone suprised you, outplayed or you were stupid, i dont see anything wrong in that


Boosters are a valid mechanic, giving advantage ppl who are using it,

Train a toon and use it aswell if youre so mad about it, its eve online not you-online




Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-11-27 17:35:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
hujciwdupe22 wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Links were already nerfed, hard. The skirmish links are not the issue.

The range of the web has never been an issue with this discussion.
When the transversal speed of a target quadruples with the loss of the web bonus, and goes up by a factor of 15 for a double-webbed target, that completely eradicated the effectiveness of the Serpentis boats.


Yeah, the range you get when you combine faction webs, skirmish links, and overloading actually is the problem. 15km 90% webs are fine, 25km 90% webs are stupidly broken. The latter lets you full-stop someone outside of the effective range of all medium-sized weapons.

They can't nerf links because the current power level is designed around them being on grid, except they don't know how to code that yet. If they drop the nerf-hammer now they'll essentially take away like 3 million SP from a bunch of characters and cause alt-accounts used for OGB to unsub.



another dude,

webs got big range,

again so what about it?

arazus can stop ships aswell, not mentioning rapiers or frigs and ceptors who catch you even before you land on the gate,

or the worst scenario all af them at once + two vigilants,

you got cought becouse someone suprised you, outplayed or you were stupid, i dont see anything wrong in that


Boosters are a valid mechanic, giving advantage ppl who are using it,

Train a toon and use it aswell if youre so mad about it, its eve online not you-online




Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".

Velator OP, nerf Velator
Makkuro Tatsu
Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure
#175 - 2013-11-27 17:41:12 UTC
Bob FromMarketing wrote:
Literally biomass your character, your guild needs you in WoW

The thing I love about EVE is that they let *everybody* join if he can pay, however dumb... Big smile
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#176 - 2013-11-27 18:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
First i will say that the Vindicator is fine as it is. Nothing is needed to be changed on it. I have been using it for some years now and i know all of it's good sides and where it's bad sides are.

Anyone who have been playing EVE for some time knows that the Serpentis ships is all about applying DPS at close range. Because of that, it needs to have a tool to be able to apply it's damage to most targets. Therefor, it needs to be able to slow the ships down to the level that it can hit the targets pretty good.

A Machariel or any other fast ships (like a 100MN AB Tengu) will now have it VERY easy and will be extremely overpowered against any Vindicators as it can just cycle it's MWD and never be in danger of getting webbed so much that it would be in danger. The only way of catching a Machariel in a Vindicator is if the pilot does a mistake by coming inside 18 km. That's the ONLY way for the Vindicator to fight against a Machariel or any other fast ships.

So by nerfing the web bonuses on the Vindicator, you leave the Machariel to be extremely op again.

The only place i would ever accept the change to remove the web bonus on the Vindicator is if the Vindicator gets a 25% damage boost. Again, the Vindicator is about applying DPS. So it needs to have some kind of tool to be able to do that.

Without the web bonus, the Vindicator will just be a glorified Megathron Navy Issue v2.0 with just some more DPS. I don't want that. I will rather sell my Vindicator and buy the Navy Mega if the Vindicator lose it's web bonus and doesn't get anything to make up for that.

So in all, don't mess with the Vindicator as it's pretty damn good balanced as it is now against the other pirate battleships.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Cavalira
Habemus
#177 - 2013-11-27 18:34:22 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
First i will say that the Vindicator is fine as it is. Nothing is needed to be changed on it. I have been using it for some years now and i know all of it's good sides and where it's bad sides are.

Anyone who have been playing EVE for some time knows that the Serpentis ships is all about applying DPS at close range. Because of that, it needs to have a tool to be able to apply it's damage to most targets.

A Machariel or any other fast ships will now have it VERY easy against any Vindicators as it can just cycle it's MWD and never be in danger of getting webbed so much that it would be in danger.

The only place i would ever accept the change to remove the web bonus on the Vindicator is if the Vindicator gets a 25% damage boost. Again, the Vindicator is about applying DPS. So it needs to have some kind of tool to be able to do that.

Without the web bonus, the Vindicator will just be a Megathron Navy Issue v2.0 with just some more DPS. I don't want that. I will rather sell my Vindicator and buy the Navy Mega if the Vindicator lose it's web bonus and doesn't get anything to make up for that.

So in all, don't mess with the Vindicator as it's pretty damn good balanced as it is now.


You could also fit two webs, but since the future development of EVE evolves around your needs and tactics, this surely won't be a problem.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2013-11-27 18:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Cavalira wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
First i will say that the Vindicator is fine as it is. Nothing is needed to be changed on it. I have been using it for some years now and i know all of it's good sides and where it's bad sides are.

Anyone who have been playing EVE for some time knows that the Serpentis ships is all about applying DPS at close range. Because of that, it needs to have a tool to be able to apply it's damage to most targets.

A Machariel or any other fast ships will now have it VERY easy against any Vindicators as it can just cycle it's MWD and never be in danger of getting webbed so much that it would be in danger.

The only place i would ever accept the change to remove the web bonus on the Vindicator is if the Vindicator gets a 25% damage boost. Again, the Vindicator is about applying DPS. So it needs to have some kind of tool to be able to do that.

Without the web bonus, the Vindicator will just be a Megathron Navy Issue v2.0 with just some more DPS. I don't want that. I will rather sell my Vindicator and buy the Navy Mega if the Vindicator lose it's web bonus and doesn't get anything to make up for that.

So in all, don't mess with the Vindicator as it's pretty damn good balanced as it is now.


You could also fit two webs, but since the future development of EVE evolves around your needs and tactics, this surely won't be a problem.

It seems you don't understand the purpose of the web bonus. This change must make you glad, as your large blob gangs will be even more OP without 90% webs to equalize the playing field.
Cavalira
Habemus
#179 - 2013-11-27 19:03:38 UTC
You're right! 90% webs are the counter to blobs.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#180 - 2013-11-27 19:11:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sshhhhh...
Now you have ruined it.
My Arazu with a overheated faction scram and links can kill an MwD and warp ability out to 33 km.
If you factor in a couple sensor damps, not only can't my target run away, he can't target me either.

Clearly, this is OP, and the Arazu must be removed from the game, since it is just not fair.
Guess I better sell this ship too.

While we are at it, guess my Curse with it's 37 km neuts out past cruiser weapon range should be wiped out of the game as well, and don't get me started on my Rapier.

Yes, most of my ships are OP, and should be removed from the game.
Fozzie, Rise, you best get busy. You have a lot of work ahead of you.
And then, when you have hacked every ship down to a "proper balance", you can start all over again, since the ships you started with will be OP to the last ones you "rebalanced".


This is kind of off the 90% web topic, but whatever.

The problem is that because links boost certain things, and the boost is so massive, the things that are NOT boosted by links become terrible. Turrets are boosted by links, because being faster and more agile makes it easier to cut down on transversal. Missiles, however, don't derive any benefit from links, and as such they've become really bad, as links allow you to mitigate almost all of their damage. RLMs were the only real usable missiles and they just got nerfed.

You mention the Curse, the Curse is actually also pretty bad right now because it's not bonused by links while the Gallente and Minmatar recons are.