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The Marmite Collective Wardeccing... for a good cause ? Really ?

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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#141 - 2013-11-27 18:01:52 UTC
...and that Eve is just a game. It's video game RP, nothing more. Kind of a different matter then IRL! Big smile
RAIN Arthie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2013-11-27 18:06:04 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.




Infantry Carrier Squad Delta
.........☻/☻/☻/☻/ ︻╦╤─ .
▂▄▅ /▌ /▌ /▌ /▌ ██▅▃▂
I███████████████████
.◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤



Deffinition: Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2013-11-27 18:06:30 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



Thanks alot for inquiring.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#144 - 2013-11-27 18:07:33 UTC
RAIN Arthie wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.




Infantry Carrier Squad Delta
.........☻/☻/☻/☻/ ︻╦╤─ .
▂▄▅ /▌ /▌ /▌ /▌ ██▅▃▂
I███████████████████
.◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤


What if we knocked on your CCP door and locked you down in your system for months and extorted you claiming it was for a good cause? Would the game mechanic still allowed? Probably not.

But if you did the same thing and put the isk in your own wallet its better?

Seriously buddy, again, get a grip.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
RAW23
#145 - 2013-11-27 18:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



Thank you for clarifying this. Has different advice been given to individual pirates re: ransoms or has that just been misreported?

For example, this post

Quote:

Of note: CCP do not approve of ransoming someone's ship or pod under the guise of "Donate to the charity or I blow you up", because they (fairly reasonably) don't want the worst of the pubbies complaining to the charity about it. (And yes, some will, some miners and the like are despicable human beings). So in ransom situations, demand the ISK or other assets come to you as normal, then honor or dishonor the ransom as you see fit, then convert the ransom into PLEX and donate to the fund through the proper channels.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902836#post3902836

As far as I'm aware, this pirate asked the same question of the GM team and was told not to do this. Is the policy different for individual ransoms or does your statement in this thread over-ride any previous petition responses on the topic?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#146 - 2013-11-27 18:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
RAW23 wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



Thank you for clarifying this. Has different advice been given to individual pirates re: ransoms or has that just been misreported?

For example, this post

Quote:

Of note: CCP do not approve of ransoming someone's ship or pod under the guise of "Donate to the charity or I blow you up", because they (fairly reasonably) don't want the worst of the pubbies complaining to the charity about it. (And yes, some will, some miners and the like are despicable human beings). So in ransom situations, demand the ISK or other assets come to you as normal, then honor or dishonor the ransom as you see fit, then convert the ransom into PLEX and donate to the fund through the proper channels.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3902836#post3902836

As far as I'm aware, this pirate asked the same question of the GM team and was told not to do this. Is the policy different for individual ransoms or does your statement in this thread over-ride any previous petition responses on the topic?

Tha'ts really not intervening, that is simply stating the most politically correct way to do it. They certainly didn't say "don't do it".

Edit: Now that I look at that thread, there isn't a CCP response in it. That would seem to be the persons own opinion.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Moneta Curran
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2013-11-27 18:13:24 UTC
RAIN Arthie wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



Deffinition: Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[


Thanks for the "Deffinition". What's your point?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#148 - 2013-11-27 18:16:13 UTC
Moneta Curran wrote:
RAIN Arthie wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



Deffinition: Extortion (also called shakedown, outwresting, and exaction) is a criminal offense of obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion. Refraining from doing harm is sometimes euphemistically called protection. Extortion is commonly practiced by organized crime groups. The actual obtainment of money or property is not required to commit the offense. Making a threat of violence which refers to a requirement of a payment of money or property to halt future violence is sufficient to commit the offense. Exaction refers not only to extortion or the unlawful demanding and obtaining of something through force,[1] but additionally, in its formal definition, means the infliction of something such as pain and suffering or making somebody endure something unpleasant.[


Thanks for the "Deffinition". What's your point?


Not to mention that no real money is being demanded for anything. It's ISK, fake currency that you in fact don't own to begin with. Big smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2013-11-27 18:17:36 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



I didn't see the extortion as being the issue, that is everyday normality. Whoever gets the isk can do with it as they please. However if it is in the name of Plex for good then absolute guarantees are required.

I am intrigued to know how/why someone is going to give up their time to check that isk/plex given to Marmite (in this instance) is actually then passed on, and when. It would seem much simpler if donations had to be first hand, not via a third party that may or may not pass something on. There is a total lack of transparency in the type of 'fundraising' this allows and I see no practical way for CCP to ever know if an extorted amount was intended as a donation or if it was then ever passed on. That seems naive and wrong.
BKM Industries
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-11-27 18:18:33 UTC
I am the one who sent out the mails. I am the one who picked targets. I did not expect to get tears this was a payment I did not plan for. A few things I will make clear:

1 all corps/allaicnes had 24 hours totalk to me before the dec. I wated to get them to pay at least 1 plex to the cause if they already donated they could have sent me a SS of the finished contract. I would have went as low as 200m isk.

2 1 plex is cheap to get out of a war dec so it is a giant discount.

3 Some people think it is wrong to do this for charity yet Nov 2nd no one complained when people were streaming fleets killing people to raise money for Extra Life. About $4 million was raised to help kids. Why did people not cry about that? Even CCP jumped on to help.

4 CCP was also sent this mail and will have a war dec. We beat them before and they have not agreed to the terms laid out before them.

5 per the first post
Quote:
"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.

6 I can go on and on but no need I think the Dev's have spoken. No one has paid up and I wasted isk on decs that could have went to charity. Now I need to blow some people up to make mroe isk. Time for some mroe war decs.
type something here to make a cool sig!!!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2013-11-27 18:20:01 UTC
Pap Uhotih wrote:

I am intrigued to know how/why someone is going to give up their time to check that isk/plex given to Marmite (in this instance) is actually then passed on, and when.


Its their job?
Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2013-11-27 18:23:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pap Uhotih wrote:

I am intrigued to know how/why someone is going to give up their time to check that isk/plex given to Marmite (in this instance) is actually then passed on, and when.


Its their job?


If you're not allowed to scam P4G and you then allow third party handling of donations then yes, I think it is their job to Police it.
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2013-11-27 18:26:10 UTC
BKM Industries wrote:
*snip*

5 per the first post
Quote:
"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.


Well thanks for standing up to it, i can only say that i in no way did change the text. It's copied 1:1 from the forwarded mail. The only change i could think of would have been made by the person who sent me this, which, i have no idea why in the first place he would do that. So i have little reason to believe you in that regard, i'm sorry.

How do you plan to avoid any misuse of this ? How much time will those alliances get from a regular war dec that you deliver afterwards ? What are the terms ?

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#154 - 2013-11-27 18:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Pap Uhotih wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Pap Uhotih wrote:

I am intrigued to know how/why someone is going to give up their time to check that isk/plex given to Marmite (in this instance) is actually then passed on, and when.


Its their job?


If you're not allowed to scam P4G and you then allow third party handling of donations then yes, I think it is their job to Police it.

Plex for good is handled via a contract to a character of the same name, this is simplicity itself for the Marmites (and CCP) to get confirmation of.

Since the Marmites are willing to accept that smaller donations paid to the groups that are collecting them is okay (down to 200mil) again this would be done by contract and easy to verify for Marmites and CCP alike.

Any direct payments would be extremely easy for CCP to check Marmite transaction logs to account for, and they have been VERY public about the whole thing. You do realize that CCP is constantly checking players financial/chat/EvE mail/contract records in game for one reason or another, and have easy access to everything that they need.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
BKM Industries
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-11-27 18:34:29 UTC  |  Edited by: BKM Industries
Obmud wrote:
BKM Industries wrote:
*snip*

5 per the first post
Quote:
"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.


Well thanks for standing up to it, i can only say that i in no way did change the text. It's copied 1:1 from the forwarded mail. The only change i could think of would have been made by the person who sent me this, which, i have no idea why in the first place he would do that. So i have little reason to believe you in that regard, i'm sorry.

How do you plan to avoid any misuse of this ? How much time will those alliances get from a regular war dec that you deliver afterwards ? What are the terms ?


Why not ask your friend for the mail I sent them? As for the misuse I am the only one who would have collected and touched the isk or plex so would have been easy for CCP to check. Yet no one paid so not hard to do the math. Granted I do not see much of a need to explain this to you or anyone. I have followed the rules and will keep doing so. The only 2 people I ever scamed in this game are real life friends. So all the war targets are safe seeing my RL friends are mostly perma war deced.

Anyone wanna be my real life friend? I need more perma war decs.

I have added my 2 isk on this thread 2 times. No mroe need for me to add to it. CCP knows where to find me if they have a question or think I did something wrong.

EDIT: Ranger 1 as I said before we even sent the mail to CCP nothing to hide.
type something here to make a cool sig!!!
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2013-11-27 18:36:44 UTC
BKM Industries wrote:
Obmud wrote:
BKM Industries wrote:
*snip*

5 per the first post
Quote:
"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.


Well thanks for standing up to it, i can only say that i in no way did change the text. It's copied 1:1 from the forwarded mail. The only change i could think of would have been made by the person who sent me this, which, i have no idea why in the first place he would do that. So i have little reason to believe you in that regard, i'm sorry.

How do you plan to avoid any misuse of this ? How much time will those alliances get from a regular war dec that you deliver afterwards ? What are the terms ?


Why not ask your friend for the mail I sent them? As for the misuse I am the only one who would have collected and touched the isk or plex so would have been easy for CCP to check. Yet no one paid so not hard to do the math. Granted I do not see much of a need to explain this to you or anyone. I have followed the rules and will keep doing so. The only 2 people I ever scamed in this game are real life friends. So all the war targets are safe seeing my RL friends are mostly perma war deced.

Anyone wanna be my real life friend? I need more perma war decs.

I have added my 2 isk on this thread 2 times. No mroe need for me to add to it. CCP knows where to find me if they have a question or think I did something wrong.

EDIT: Ranger 1 as I said before we even sent the mail to CCP nothing to hide.


Just one more thing since i stirred all this up, i do find your intention commendable i just think personally it's not done the right way. As we know its not illegal so go ahead. Case closed i guess.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.
Winchester Steele
#157 - 2013-11-27 18:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Winchester Steele
Obmud wrote:
Quote:
And it is, of course, blackmail. Do x or you will suffer negative consequences y is just what blackmail is.

Quote:
No it isn't lol. If that were the case, pretty much everything in the world is blackmail.


You are being serious, are you ?

Blackmail is an act, often a crime, involving unjustified threats to make a gain or cause loss to another unless a demand is met.[1][2] It may be defined as coercion involving threats of physical harm, threat of criminal prosecution, or threats for the purposes of taking the person's money or property.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackmail



Newsflash dumbass. Eve != Real life.

Here. Because I'm a bro, I'll leave this for you.

...

Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2013-11-27 18:49:03 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:

I've spoken with the GM Team regarding this, and the decision is quite simple.

Corporate extortion via demand for payment to cease hostilities is a valid game mechanic.

If this valid game mechanic is being used as a method of raising ISK for a good cause, then CCP will not intervene.



As it should be. Player emergent gameplay is the lifeblood of EVE.
gnshadowninja
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#159 - 2013-11-27 18:49:55 UTC
Obmud wrote:
BKM Industries wrote:
Obmud wrote:
BKM Industries wrote:
*snip*

5 per the first post
Quote:
"We thought it would be a good idea to war dec alliances. And if they want to surrender they will have to donate a plex to the lex for good campaign. We just want to do something to support the Plex for good campaign of ccp".
was not something I said. So I am guessing either someone just changed words around or this was from a convo after someone recived the mail.


Well thanks for standing up to it, i can only say that i in no way did change the text. It's copied 1:1 from the forwarded mail. The only change i could think of would have been made by the person who sent me this, which, i have no idea why in the first place he would do that. So i have little reason to believe you in that regard, i'm sorry.

How do you plan to avoid any misuse of this ? How much time will those alliances get from a regular war dec that you deliver afterwards ? What are the terms ?


Why not ask your friend for the mail I sent them? As for the misuse I am the only one who would have collected and touched the isk or plex so would have been easy for CCP to check. Yet no one paid so not hard to do the math. Granted I do not see much of a need to explain this to you or anyone. I have followed the rules and will keep doing so. The only 2 people I ever scamed in this game are real life friends. So all the war targets are safe seeing my RL friends are mostly perma war deced.

Anyone wanna be my real life friend? I need more perma war decs.

I have added my 2 isk on this thread 2 times. No mroe need for me to add to it. CCP knows where to find me if they have a question or think I did something wrong.

EDIT: Ranger 1 as I said before we even sent the mail to CCP nothing to hide.


Just one more thing since i stirred all this up, i do find your intention commendable i just think personally it's not done the right way. As we know its not illegal so go ahead. Case closed i guess.


This is your problem, if you agree or disagree its happening and going to happen. If we can raise money for a charity through a game to do a good thing, why not?
This is policed, BKM is the only one to touch the ISK and does alot for charities and runs 'Gaming for charity' aswell so can be fully trusted and even if you don't trust him, CCP has made it clear he would be banned.

I think personally complaining and crying about a war dec which intentions are to help charity is disrespectful and selfish. But I aint making a whole thread about it.
Obmud
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2013-11-27 18:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Obmud
gnshadowninja wrote:

This is your problem, if you agree or disagree its happening and going to happen. If we can raise money for a charity through a game to do a good thing, why not?
This is policed, BKM is the only one to touch the ISK and does alot for charities and runs 'Gaming for charity' aswell so can be fully trusted and even if you don't trust him, CCP has made it clear he would be banned.

I think personally complaining and crying about a war dec which intentions are to help charity is disrespectful and selfish. But I aint making a whole thread about it.


Yet you comment on it, selfrighteous pe rson. I'm sorry that i disrupted your day by inquiring about something that i felt wasn't right. It says alot about people who feel like they can put people that ask questions in the spot of "whiners" and "crying about x" (for the 1000s time, i'm in Viziam, viziam is an npc corp). If we lose the right to ask questions in the forum just because some of them aren't fashionable in your mind then good night.

Obmud wrote: I just thrive on forum drama. - by Riot Girl - at 2013.11.28 04:46:00

You should sig that, it will look good on you.