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A few remapping questions
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Archaea Afrodwarf
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-11-27 17:25:09 UTC
So I've got 2 remaps left, and have never remapped before. I know it'll speed up my training but I'm kind of all over the place with what I train. I've heard people mention a "general remap" before and seen a few examples like this:

23/21/17/21/17

For someone who's more drone heavy.

Anyhow I can't really find much info on whether or not I should bother with a "general" remap or if I should just go all out and remap after I finish my few month training plan back to basic attributes. I definitely don't want to get stuck in bad attributes and have myself get screwed in the long run.

Any tips would be much appreciated.
Inquisitor Ageri
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-11-27 17:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Inquisitor Ageri
You won't really get stuck in "bad" attributes. Remapping at an early stage does not necessarily confer a huge advantage/disadvantage to your training times. You will only really see considerable effects when training some of the much longer skills (training times of a month + ). If you are indecisive about what you are going to be gearing toward, leave the attributes as they are for now. A lot of newer players get caught up on the attribute points and acquiring implants, and it really isn't of any considerable benefit at an early stage training early skills.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-11-27 18:36:17 UTC
As a rule of thumb, don't remap unless you have a good idea of what you'll be training for the next year. If you are interested in remapping, download EVE Mon. It will optimize the best attribute spread for your skill plan. I wouldn't worry about it for a while though. When you are starting out you will be training all kinds of stuff to "test the waters" and see what you enjoy and there is no need to remap.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2013-11-27 19:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
One of my research alts is currently training Advanced Spaceship Command 5 (for freighters), which is a perception > willpower skill, but has an intelligence > memory attribute mapping. It will take a few days longer to train, but it doesn't prevent training anything. The alt will return to training mostly intelligence skills afterwards.

If you know what you want to train, then a general mapping is not ideal. However, if you don't know what you want to train, a general mapping is better than the default attributes.

Some people recommend something like:
* Train social and trade skills (primary attribute is charisma).
* Annual remap: INT > MEM
* First Bonus Remap: PER > WIL
* Second Bonus Remap: INT = PER
Which can be faster for training if you can be disciplined about which skills you train early on. I personally don't like it as it eats-up all your bonus remaps, which are extremely valuable and not replaceable, and early-on most people don't know what they will be training, and they try different things and change their minds.

For what it is worth, I had a general attribute mapping for the first 3 years. I changed to PER > WIL [27p 21p 17i 17m 17c] once I had all the skills I used the most. I'll probably be mapped this way for a total of 2 years, before mapping INT > MEM [27i 21m 17p 17w 17c] for at least a year. My personal minimal acceptable training rate is 2000 SP/hour; I try to minimize the training of skills below that rate.

You will find a lot of posts by me on the subject of general remaps. If you have specific questions, or want me to run the numbers for a different mapping, just give me a shout.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3095907#post3095907
Archaea Afrodwarf
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-11-27 19:45:32 UTC
Thanks for the replies so far!

So I know what I want to train, but only for roughly 2 months. I want to get Sentries 5 (currently at 3), and Drone Interfacing 5 (currently at 4).

Those two at my current rate would take roughly 55 days or so to train, but after that I don't have a plan as to what I'll do. So I'm just worried about remapping and having it be a "waste".

If I were to remap optimally for drone training I could knock roughly 33% of the time needed off but then again it takes me back to whether or not it's worth it to remap in general. As I might move towards missiles after drones, or maybe trying to get into some T2 ships, etc.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-11-27 19:58:59 UTC
Inquisitor Ageri wrote:
You won't really get stuck in "bad" attributes. Remapping at an early stage does not necessarily confer a huge advantage/disadvantage to your training times. You will only really see considerable effects when training some of the much longer skills (training times of a month + ). If you are indecisive about what you are going to be gearing toward, leave the attributes as they are for now. A lot of newer players get caught up on the attribute points and acquiring implants, and it really isn't of any considerable benefit at an early stage training early skills.


To explain the underlined.

I made myself a skillplan that is near enough 1.5 years of skills. Majority is all same primairy and secondary attributes, with a remap, I can safe about 1 month of training for that.

So it saves 1 month on a plan of 18 months.
So remapping for a plan that is only 2 months long, is just a waste of a remap IMO

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Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#7 - 2013-11-27 22:44:28 UTC
This is the part where you gotta trust us, and just do as we suggest, because we've got the time and experience you don't have yet.

Save the remap.

Wait until you've got a large row of 5's to train. You'll want them to add up to *at least* 6 months of training, and that's lowballing it. If its just one or two 5's, or if you can even avoid tackling the 5's, then a remap isn't efficient. Not by a longshot.

Now I'm sure you've got concerns about time-efficiency. The most time efficient thing you can do is save drone skills till later, if you have no high attributes in their primary or secondary stat. Find other skills that use one or two of the same skills. If primary/secondary get switched, that's okay, that makes very little difference. If this is possible, start planning for down the road when you take all the Int/Mem or Per/Will skills in one big swoop.

The only big hitch in this plan is that if your gaming options are restrictive while you wait. Make sure that before you specialize your attributes, you take whatever minimum skills that allow you flexibility to mostly do what you want in while training up those long months of 5s.

This is what I'm doing currently. Having finished maxing out just about all my core skills during the summer, I switched to 27Per/21Will so that I can start burning down my gunnery skills and ship access skills. I don't regret it, although there were times I felt anxious and somewhat restricted.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-11-28 00:00:16 UTC
Archaea Afrodwarf wrote:
So I've got 2 remaps left, and have never remapped before. I know it'll speed up my training but I'm kind of all over the place with what I train. I've heard people mention a "general remap" before and seen a few examples like this:

23/21/17/21/17

For someone who's more drone heavy.

Anyhow I can't really find much info on whether or not I should bother with a "general" remap or if I should just go all out and remap after I finish my few month training plan back to basic attributes. I definitely don't want to get stuck in bad attributes and have myself get screwed in the long run.

Any tips would be much appreciated.

Sounds like you'd be better off with a 'Jack Of All Skills' Attribute Remap since you said you like to jump around with training up various skills that are affected by different attributes.

This is how I've had my attributes mapped for a long time since I also like to jump around with my skill training as well.

'Jack Of All Skills' Attribute Remap:

Intelligence 22,
Perception 20,
Willpower 20,
Memory 20,
Charisma 17,

A full set of Attribute Implants will significantly decrease the skill training time.

I've had a full set of +5 Attribute Implants for quite a while now. When I first started playing, I got a full set of +3 Attribute Implants asap. By the end of my 1st year playing I had a full set of +4 Attribute Implants installed and by the end of my 2nd year playing this game I had a full set of +5 Attribute Implants.

Hope that helps and good luck to you.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-11-28 00:11:47 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
'Jack Of All Skills' Attribute Remap:

Intelligence 22,
Perception 20,
Willpower 20,
Memory 20,
Charisma 17,
This is very similar to the starter remap. It might be a good idea later (if you already had another remap), but I would not use a remap just to move 2 points. (From Charisma to Intelligence.) Just keep the starting remap. (Especially as there are a few useful Charisma skills that you might want to train early on, i.e. Social, Connections, Diplomacy and Leadership.)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2013-11-28 03:42:54 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
'Jack Of All Skills' Attribute Remap:
Intelligence 22,
Perception 20,
Willpower 20,
Memory 20,
Charisma 17,
This is very similar to the starter remap. It might be a good idea later (if you already had another remap), but I would not use a remap just to move 2 points. (From Charisma to Intelligence.) Just keep the starting remap. (Especially as there are a few useful Charisma skills that you might want to train early on, i.e. Social, Connections, Diplomacy and Leadership.)

I tend to agree: it probably isn't worthwhile for a new player.

However, it isn't a bad mapping. It probably would benefit a character with a good amount of skills already trained.

My main reservation about the mapping is that it puts 3 points into Willpower. The main skills that have Willpower as a primary attribute are T2 ship skills. It seems reasonable to do this on a more advanced "Jack of all trades" character, because T2 ship skills are commonly trained to level 5. However a new player is less likely to benefit from this as much as other attributes.

New players have a much higher requirement for Intelligence and Perception: nearly every core skill has Intelligence as primary, and weapon & T1 ship skills have Perception as primary.

Because of the preponderance of INT>MEM skills, especially with MEM>INT industry or MEM>PER drone skills, Memory is more important for new players than Willpower. However I suggest that Memory can be minimized if there is no intent to get involved in industry (=mining, research, and manufacturing), but some Memory can help for those planning to make drones a primary weapon system.
Solai
Doughfleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#11 - 2013-11-28 11:19:19 UTC
I'd like to strongly advise against doing a jack of all trades map, ever, even as a 0 day newbie. Why? Any skill points not invested into a primary or secondary that's currently in training is wasted. The time saved by 2 points here, 4 points there is a much smaller number than time saved on a full specialization with just a little cursory planning.
In any given skill train, only two of your stats are being used. The rest of the points are giving you no benefit. It's rather easy to keep yourself utilizing your primary/secondary, and to gain their full benefit almost all the time.

Intelligence 27/Memory 21 will very likely be the most time efficient and useful spec you use right now. Perception 27/Willpower 21 would be the other highly beneficial one. But I'd favor the former because maxed out core skills(int/mem typically) are far more applicable than others, even ship/gunnery skills(which are usually Per/Will). Add to that the larger importance of possessing good defense, rather than offense. Defense lies squarely within Int/Mem mapping.
Stan Durden
Solar Forged
#12 - 2013-12-01 18:45:26 UTC
If you are switching between ships/guns and core/support skills then typically a mix of perception and intelligence will get you the best results. When you have enough of an idea of what your long term training goals are then you can make a plan with EveMon and see what would be the best mix.

One piece of advice: focus your SP on a very few ships/skills. The more focused you are, the more effective you will be.
Nancy Crow
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#13 - 2013-12-02 18:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nancy Crow
For a new player, I agree that the default map is good to start out with. Once you have about a month or 2 to play around, I'm a big fan of the per=int remap. This will give you decent performance for getting all you tank, navigation, gunnery/missiles, fitting, and ship skills up (especially if you can risk some+3 implants). You can train everything you want to to 4, and get the important, low multiplier skills to 5 (navigation, evasive maneuvering, pg/CPU management, weapon upgrades, cap operation, small/medium T2 weapons, etc.). Get good fitting skills, t2 tank, a variety of ships/weapons you need.

Once you are pretty well rounded in you chosen profession, you can go with a more specific remap for the long trains. Mem>will for drones, per>will for gunnery/ships, int>mem for random supports, char>wil for leadership, etc. These will somewhat box your training in, which is why you want a good base first. Remaps are a precious thing, and you can get away with a few "short term" ones early on (6-9 months), but once the bonus ones are gone, they only come once a year.
Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#14 - 2013-12-03 03:31:59 UTC
I'm hardly an expert, but I've trained up a dozen characters so far...

My suggestion for a new player is to train social skills first as that will boost your standing gain and mission rewards. Then map to Int/Mem and work on your Core fitting skills (train cybernetics first and plug in +3 implants as soon as you can). After you have really good fitting skills, then remap to Perc/Will and train up the ship command and dps skills.

My thought is that good fitting and tank skills will help tremendously and then allow you to fly the ships you train into much better. The only downside is that it takes patience.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE