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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Renegate11
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-11-27 14:27:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.


I hope this stays like u say... Because its simple i pay to play you get paid with my money so u have to do as i say. kthx o7
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2013-11-27 14:27:43 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Obviously I meant in its class. Not theoretical raw dps. Fleet typhoon with torpedoes is a very illusory dps for example.

Serpentis are the most effective appliers of DPS at close range.


Ask me about my Naglfar Alpha, my 6% Hardwired Talos, or Fighterbombers.



And how are these in SAME CLASS as stated in my text?

The talos with 6% hardwiring.. why not compare to a vindicator with same hardwiring?

You try to be obnoxious or you are just incapable of reading? I am not a native enlgihs speaker, but I am amazed how low are comprehension and logical skills on these forums. Geez

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
BadSeamus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-11-27 14:28:32 UTC
Thought Experiment...

Change webbing mechanics so that the applied effect is controlled by the range between ship and target i.e. strongest at optimal, zero up close, or the reverse. Use scripts to change between the two schemes. Unscripted webs are drastically reduced in power. Not sure it solves the problem of overpowered webs on Vindies and DDs, but it makes webs more interesting to use and gives more opportunities for people to screw it up (stretching the gap between people with piloting skill and people without)

If I'm flying a Vindy, and using the "strongest at optimal" script, I can catch dudes and hold them while I get closer.
Because the web gets weaker the closer I get, I can't control the transversal very well though, reducing the benefit - without killing it.

If I'm using the reverse script (strong up close, weak at optimal), its just plain harder for me to get close. I have to warp close, or the target needs to be dumb enough to approah. If he does, he's toast, because he will stop moving, I will get to zero range, control my transversal for max damage.

If I'm flying a DD, and using the "strongest up close script" I can keep the target in place, but I have to be orbiting real close - ruining my transversal (a bit!). If I'm using the reverse script I have to web from range, and keep range - meaning my guns are out of optimal (even though I'm possibly controlling transversal well)

Potentially makes 'short range webs' valuable.

Possibly a terrible idea. Possible genius. I know which one I think :o)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2013-11-27 14:28:48 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.



You had any doubt this reaction would help? Want an exercise? Suggest a random line of tought about the Phoenix .. and see the storm....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#125 - 2013-11-27 14:29:02 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.



Given you very recent past history. people DO have to scream long and loud, right now.
You simply have no idea what you are doing, and it is very clear that the only feedback you listen to is the type that is very loud, very negative, and very often, and even then, you ignore most of it.

And please, don't give us that crap about "not saying anything specific".
We can all read.
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#126 - 2013-11-27 14:30:40 UTC
Petition to replace Drone Assist on Slowcats with a bonus for the number of concurrent members in a fleet

- Mr Vee 2013
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-11-27 14:31:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Obviously I meant in its class. Not theoretical raw dps. Fleet typhoon with torpedoes is a very illusory dps for example.

Serpentis are the most effective appliers of DPS at close range.


Ask me about my Naglfar Alpha, my 6% Hardwired Talos, or Fighterbombers.



And how are these in SAME CLASS as stated in my text?

The talos with 6% hardwiring.. why not compare to a vindicator with same hardwiring?

You try to be obnoxious or you are just incapable of reading? I am not a native enlgihs speaker, but I am amazed how low are comprehension and logical skills on these forums. Geez

Is it that hard to understand that everyone who actually flies these ships doesn't want them to simply be a faster Navy Mega with a bit more DPS? Maybe you do for your blob gangs, but guess what - the vast majority of people who actually fly these things for any significant length of time understand the importance of the web in balancing engagements.
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#128 - 2013-11-27 14:31:58 UTC
Makkuro Tatsu wrote:
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
(...) stop stripping stuff and nerfing, and rather ADD mods/features which a player can train to COUNTER the bonus of a specific ship. This not only adds more flavor and variety to the game, but again will echo lore and RL, where a counter is developed to a big technical advantage over time. This lets you balance PVP, without killing PVE roles.

Very interesting idea. Not only does it mirror technological development in RL, it also matches what is available in terms of ECM/ECCM or point/warpcore-stabilizer in EVE. Design modules which can counter webs, and perhaps even new skills which govern these modules. Better than nerfing ship traits, and it would leave the decision about using the new modules or not to the players.


have you never heard of Microwarp drives, afterburners, nanofibers, overdrive injectors
Low-grade and High-Grade Snake
Zor's Custom Navigation Hyper-Link

Literally biomass your character, your guild needs you in WoW
Nocturnal Phantom
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-11-27 14:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nocturnal Phantom
Look CCP, I love this game, we all do, but this is by far the worst idea you have put out in a very long time. Nerfing the Serpentis web bonus is a serious mistake. For the amount of ISK we put into these ships, the roles they take up on, we deserve to keep these ships as is.

Now, the T3 ships why even touch them? I would understand rebalancing the Legion, in other words buff it, but other than that why touch the other T3's? The other T3's are fine as is...

I hope CCP doesnt decide to go through with such changes. You will destroy EvE, I wont stop playing it but i will be that much closer to it.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#130 - 2013-11-27 14:38:16 UTC
"CCP, please keep us informed about and involved in the dev process as early as possible!"

"CCP, if you dare to share your rough ideas and thoughts with us well in advance we will flame you to the ground."


Also, I just came up with a nice motto: More brainstorming, less shitstorming!
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-11-27 14:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Nocturnal Phantom wrote:
Look CCP, I love this game, we all do, but this is by far the worst idea you have put out in a very long time. Nerfing the Serpentis web bonus is a serious mistake. For the amount of ISK we put into these ships, the roles they take up on, we deserve to keep these ships as is.

Now, the T3 ships why even touch them? I would understand rebalancing the Legion, in other words buff it, but other than that why touch the other T3's? The other T3's are fine as is...

I hope CCP doesnt decide to go through with such changes. You will destroy EvE, I wont stop playing it but i will be that much closer to it.

But CCP, as stated earlier, doesn't care why you bought the ship you bought and how much you paid for it, or how many you have, or the current role of the ship.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-11-27 14:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Sephira Galamore wrote:
"CCP, please keep us informed about and involved in the dev process as early as possible!"

"CCP, if you dare to share your rough ideas and thoughts with us well in advance we will flame you to the ground."


Also, I just came up with a nice motto: More brainstorming, less shitstorming!

I see nothing wrong with burning bad ideas to the ground. It is simply another form of feedback. I do agree with the last part of your statement, however, but the "problem" with the ship lies in the skirmish links rather than the ship itself.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2013-11-27 14:48:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships.... We are not going to take that away.

Hopefully that uniqueness doesn't refer to anything with extended reload? Being paranoid I can already see webs with scripts coming - 20 seconds burst mode, 40 seconds reload.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2013-11-27 14:48:23 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT

Infact I can't even fathom a single gimmick to give serpentis ships that would adequately replace their web bonus in any form, that would not render the line defunct and undesirable.

CCP Rise and Fozzzie, you see this^

PUBLIC TEST and FEEDBACK

Cause, honestly, I no longer trust you or the CSM to do what is best for the player base as a whole. Though I do trust the CSM slightly more than you two, at least presently. That can always change however!
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-11-27 14:51:34 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships.... We are not going to take that away.

Hopefully that uniqueness doesn't refer to anything with extended reload? Being paranoid I can already see webs with scripts coming - 20 seconds burst mode, 40 seconds reload.



Genious.
You should be a game designer.

40 seconds of doing nothing sounds like an awesome idea.
I'm so excited I feel like letting out a little squeee.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-11-27 14:54:50 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT

Infact I can't even fathom a single gimmick to give serpentis ships that would adequately replace their web bonus in any form, that would not render the line defunct and undesirable.

CCP Rise and Fozzzie, you see this^

PUBLIC TEST and FEEDBACK

Cause, honestly, I no longer trust you or the CSM to do what is best for the player base as a whole. Though I do trust the CSM slightly more than you two, at least presently. That can always change however!

Anything less than 90% would make these undesirable. Emphasis on 90% - they are why people buy these. Even if you lower the damage/turret bonuses, but DON'T nerf the 90%.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2013-11-27 14:55:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.



Just like every Matar "baseline" ends up being near useless after each rebalance.

Call me dubious there.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-11-27 14:55:35 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.


The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.


Eg: Geddon?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#139 - 2013-11-27 14:59:14 UTC
90% webs are a ridiculously overpowered bonus.

Especially on a ship capable of fielding 300k+ ehp.

Massive smack with the nerfbat would serve well. I think 90% web cruisers are alright, because while they act like massive force multipliers they are relatively easy to kill compared to the battleships.

I don't actually think that the Daredevil is that overpowered unless its run with links.. With links its absolutely stupid but without them its just very good.

So bash the Vindi, adjust the cruisers gently, and slap the frigs a bit.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-11-27 15:06:51 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
90% webs are a ridiculously overpowered bonus.

Especially on a ship capable of fielding 300k+ ehp.

Massive smack with the nerfbat would serve well. I think 90% web cruisers are alright, because while they act like massive force multipliers they are relatively easy to kill compared to the battleships.

I don't actually think that the Daredevil is that overpowered unless its run with links.. With links its absolutely stupid but without them its just very good.

So bash the Vindi, adjust the cruisers gently, and slap the frigs a bit.

Again, the problem is LINKS. Sure, the Vindi could use a tank nerf, the Vigilant a small buff, but make skirmish links less effective. Skirmish links work too well with new ewar frigs (70km webs on Hyena, similar disrupt range on Keres) and those need to be nerfed.