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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-11-27 13:28:16 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Even the recent RLM changes, while hurting a lot of cruiser lovers, are a good thing, because they return HMs to the field

Lol
Judging by their condition nothing will return HM's to the field. They are so bad that people will rather start training something else, which they are doing already.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-11-27 13:28:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".


Yeah, you didn't say that the first time. Nice job moving the goalposts.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-11-27 13:30:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#104 - 2013-11-27 13:30:18 UTC
Morwennon wrote:
Roime wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
I don't think it's so much a question of 90% webs being overpowered as it is of webs themselves being a bit too generally useful at the moment. As it stands, a regular 60% web is simultaneously a powerful tool for range/transversal control and around twice as powerful as a target painter for increasing the damage applied to a target due to the way the tracking formula and missile damage expression work. If you decoupled the range/transversal control from the direct effect on damage application, you'd probably make the game as a whole a lot more interesting as well as giving target painters more of a role and solving the "problem" of Vindicators acting as overtanked force multipliers (I'm not convinced that the DD having good range control is particularly problematic).


Stasis Webifier II range: 10km
Target Painter II range: 45+90km

Minmatar recons have bonuses to both forms of ewar, and similar ranges on both when fit appropriately.

"Hmmm yes I will fit target painters on my pvp rapier rather than webs" said no one ever


It's the same for all non-ecm recons, they may as well just skip the actual ewar bonuses, since they have silly OP recon bonuses that overshadow them completely.
Martin Vanzyl
EVE University
Ivy League
#105 - 2013-11-27 13:42:43 UTC
Makkuro Tatsu wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Are you actively trying to ruin incursions for everyone step by step? Wasn't it enough to nerf booster efficiency, make most ships except pirate battleships quite useless for incursions, even marauders? Now you consider nerfing Vindicator web efficiency bonuses on top of all? The Vindi has been hit badly enough by the reduced web ranges due to booster changes.

To me this feels like you continue considering ships only in terms of PvP over PvE and just steamrolling ahead with your "vision" without concern for pilots who play the game differently from how you want them to play it. Very sad!


Hear hear!

I will echo my corpmate and add the following...

CCP Fozzie. Are you actually playing EVE at all? Do you have an alt in the Sandbox and are doing your preferred PVE/PVP activity? With you favorite ship? Which has been designed for the specific task by being bonused for it - (echoing RL military craft which are designed for their function and are very good at doing that in most cases). Now suddenly, CCP Random Dev, comes along and says "Nooo. This ship too good at its job. It must only be mediocre. It must be balanced with the common denominator." Suddenly, your ship, which you invested subscription time($$$$), isk and SP to get into after months of effort and waiting, has its bonus, the feature for which it was DESIGNED stripped or nerfed... making it just like every other base T1 ship effectively, which just looks fancy now.

I'll also echo the others... stop stripping stuff and nerfing, and rather ADD mods/features which a player can train to COUNTER the bonus of a specific ship. This not only adds more flavor and variety to the game, but again will echo lore and RL, where a counter is developed to a big technical advantage over time. This lets you balance PVP, without killing PVE roles.

PVE is used to fuel PVP for most of us who aren't rich - so please, Fozzie, do a proper ripple effect study across all facets of EVE.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-11-27 13:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

Tell me, how is it overpowered? A squishy ship that could be permajammed by a Griffin, absolutely destroyed by a solo Crucifier, murdered by a Keres, and utterly disabled by a Hyena? A Tech 1 ship with Tech 1 resists that can barely fit any tank, and when hit, turns into an expensive boom?

If anything, these ships help small gangs get on equal footing with large gangs. If that makes it overpowered for you, then I guess we're done here.

But the great thing about these modules & ships is that it does not work in reverse - large gangs already have plenty of webs, Raipiers, tackle, etc, so it does not help them overpower small gangs at all.


If you really need help to understand why its overpowered you don't understand combat. Period. And clearly cannot fit a DD is you think it is so weak.

The keres excuse is pathetic, because it can netutralize ANY frigate.. even if you give the frigate 1 trillion dps. That means that 1 trillion dps is not OP. You simply do not know what OP means! OP does not mean it does not have a counter!


I do not think its the most overpowered thing in game, but it is an absurdly powerful bonus on a ship that is very fast (in slower ships like blood raider ones, it is no where as powerful).

Again, it snot a completely broken bonus. But serpentis ships are more pwoerful than the angel ones that people are whinning so much to be nerfed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-11-27 13:46:07 UTC
They are clearly balancing around skirmish links, they've been doing it for awhile.

RLMLs were literally the largest viable missile system because links make the damage application of HML, HAM, Cruise, and Torps complete crap. So, RLMLs got nerfed.

90% webs at 10km/15km overloaded aren't a problem, 90% faction webs with links at 19km/25km overloaded really kind of are.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-11-27 13:49:02 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
They are clearly balancing around skirmish links, they've been doing it for awhile.

RLMLs were literally the largest viable missile system because links make the damage application of HML, HAM, Cruise, and Torps complete crap. So, RLMLs got nerfed.

90% webs at 10km/15km overloaded aren't a problem, 90% faction webs with links at 19km/25km overloaded really kind of are.



And that is not wrong. When you balance you need to keep in mind the worst and best scenario. Same way they balance resists thinking about armor links.

All this will be mitigated when the boosters are forced on grid, then peopel can stop complainign and askign for dubm things (liek links bonus being reduced to 5% range bonus to the web). Links take long time to train, they must be powerful, but theyshould also force you to expose your ship

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-11-27 13:50:23 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Obviously I meant in its class. Not theoretical raw dps. Fleet typhoon with torpedoes is a very illusory dps for example.

Serpentis are the most effective appliers of DPS at close range.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#110 - 2013-11-27 13:58:06 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.



No, that's definitely not true. The earlier we lose our minds, the earlier YOU lose your minds on this topic and actually think harder about what you are about to do. And I sure hope for your sake that you do think harder now.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#111 - 2013-11-27 13:58:47 UTC
Gripen wrote:
Reduce base web strength to 30% and make it so that from multiple webs on target only best one would apply. K, thx.

And seriously, webs are in need of much more powerful nerf than minor bonus change. They are really a bane of EVE and killing most of creative combat maneuvering that was proven in nanoship age: while high ship speeds were indeed stupid dynamic combat flourished at that time because of high ship inertia used to make it possible to counter webs somehow.


youre stupid or wat?

you get in web range you dead... its fine you derped, or he was faster
webs are supposed to catch stuff,

how is my 1000m/s armor gangsuppesed to fight your nanofag gang?

you see a rapier your dont engage if your kiting,
you didnt see the rapier? its fine too its a cov ops for fucks sake

im a nano heavy player and i dont whine becouse my cynabal got takled by webbing inties, or the random raper
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#112 - 2013-11-27 14:03:24 UTC
GREYBOBSASS wrote:
raper



:o
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#113 - 2013-11-27 14:13:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.



have you thought about changing serpentis to shield based blasterboats at all ... since CCP have recognised armour and blasters are a bad combo??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-11-27 14:16:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They do not losoe the ultimate brwler title. They still do more damage than ANY other ship. if the web bonus is reduced that would still keep them completely in control of that title.


I own several ships that do quite a bit more dps than Vindicators.


Obviously I meant in its class. Not theoretical raw dps. Fleet typhoon with torpedoes is a very illusory dps for example.

Serpentis are the most effective appliers of DPS at close range.


Ask me about my Naglfar Alpha, my 6% Hardwired Talos, or Fighterbombers.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-11-27 14:18:42 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
They are clearly balancing around skirmish links, they've been doing it for awhile.

RLMLs were literally the largest viable missile system because links make the damage application of HML, HAM, Cruise, and Torps complete crap. So, RLMLs got nerfed.

90% webs at 10km/15km overloaded aren't a problem, 90% faction webs with links at 19km/25km overloaded really kind of are.

Why not nerf links then?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#116 - 2013-11-27 14:20:57 UTC
Man, if I knew that posting a long winded version of "we are thinking about what we might change someday in this area" would generate a thread this amusing I would have done it earlier.

Uniqueness is good, doubly so for pirate ships. The flavour of the Serpentis line is very strong (in fact it is the line we tend to use as the example of what we want to replicate with the other pirate factions). We are not going to take that away.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#117 - 2013-11-27 14:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Hey CCP Rise, if you've learned one thing, it's that eve players
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
will latch onto anything to complain about how broken mission mechanics are.

I'm going to go against the grain and say the changes are great, much like this

Endovior wrote:
A little early to cry about a nerf, don't you think?

Different is not always worse... if 90% web is removed from the game, it's still entirely likely that the pirate ships will all have something worthwhile.


and say that I agree, the Daredevil, Vigilant and Vindicator should have no utility web bonus making them largely the same as a Kronos or Megathron Navy Issue, because the last thing we need is more reason to purchase more expensive ships and push plex prices higher. Hell, you may as well remove any skill related bonuses and make them purely aesthetic variations with more drone bandwith per billion isk production cost
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-11-27 14:21:51 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
You guys really don't need to lose your minds so far ahead of time.

We haven't said anything specific about any of this and that's because we aren't actually making any changes yet. Webs might change some, they might not. We have to put in time actually looking at the problem and go through a process before we have something concrete to ask for feedback on.



No, that's definitely not true. The earlier we lose our minds, the earlier YOU lose your minds on this topic and actually think harder about what you are about to do. And I sure hope for your sake that you do think harder now.

Yes. This was the point of the thread. CCP obviously considered the change imminent enough to mention it openly like that.
Makkuro Tatsu
Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure
#119 - 2013-11-27 14:23:51 UTC
Martin Vanzyl wrote:
(...) stop stripping stuff and nerfing, and rather ADD mods/features which a player can train to COUNTER the bonus of a specific ship. This not only adds more flavor and variety to the game, but again will echo lore and RL, where a counter is developed to a big technical advantage over time. This lets you balance PVP, without killing PVE roles.

Very interesting idea. Not only does it mirror technological development in RL, it also matches what is available in terms of ECM/ECCM or point/warpcore-stabilizer in EVE. Design modules which can counter webs, and perhaps even new skills which govern these modules. Better than nerfing ship traits, and it would leave the decision about using the new modules or not to the players.
Bob FromMarketing
Space Marketing Department
#120 - 2013-11-27 14:24:40 UTC
When do we get to see every ship hull replaced with a Dominix?

- DBRB 2014