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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

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Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-11-27 07:57:46 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."


Love this one.
The guy was directly involved in destroying the class, but has never flown one.
Indeed priceless.

Marauders are not destroyed. They are now extremely good. Learn to adapt to change.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2013-11-27 08:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."


Love this one.
The guy was directly involved in destroying the class, but has never flown one.
Indeed priceless.

Marauders are not destroyed. They are now extremely good. Learn to adapt to change.


What was so wrong with them that they needed alteration?


People weren't using them much before, and to balance them they took off one of the things people liked....in what world does that make sense? Now they have an artificial stat spike to point at as people try them out and ultimately realize that the ship still sucks and its job is like done better by a tengu....just like before....


EDIT: Unless you use a rapid light tengu because that too is now garbage as you sit around for 40 seconds of your life doing nothing at all.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#43 - 2013-11-27 08:31:22 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."


Love this one.
The guy was directly involved in destroying the class, but has never flown one.
Indeed priceless.

Marauders are not destroyed. They are now extremely good. Learn to adapt to change.


What was so wrong with them that they needed alteration?


People weren't using them much before, and to balance them they took off one of the things people liked....in what world does that make sense? Now they have an artificial stat spike to point at as people try them out and ultimately realize that the ship still sucks and its job is like done better by a tengu....just like before....


EDIT: Unless you use a rapid light tengu because that too is now garbage as you sit around for 40 seconds of your life doing nothing at all.


Marauders are Great now. Hell I am Actually Having my alt account doing other things Instead of following a Rattlesnake around with a Noctis. Now I actually wiped the Dust off my Marauders and use them. The new changes to Marauders + the new Mobile units Make them Excellent Ships again. To me the Marauders were actually Reborn and made useful again because Post Noctis Introduction the ship was useless as hell. Any Pirate BS outclassed it and with a noctis or even a Noctis Alt The time difference Was a Godsend and you were able to get into the mission Quicker. I have Actually seen Marauders Flown out now in breaking up Gatecamps which is EPIC. No longer are these beautiful Beasts being Locked into Carebear Mission farming mechanics but being used in multiple situations, which all eve ships should be useful. Keep these Great Changes Coming and keep these new mechanics introducing. For every Bittervet that cries about Unsubbing I see that as a great sign. More NewBro's are coming to the game daily and from what I have seen Staying in the game. The Game needs new Blood. I am glad to see a MMO out there that is keeping the game every so often refreshed. MMO's Die from Being Stagnant, Keep it changing every so often and keep the true challenge seekers Adapting.
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-11-27 08:33:30 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Why is CCP Rise posting these kind of things on 3 party forums and not on the Eve online forums.

Are the eve forums to brutal for him?

the EVE Online forums don't have an AMA section, plus he wanted to be noticed in a more public domain than the EVE forums and exposed to more questions from more people. it's a publicity thing.

Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Let's not **** this up like the RLML rebalance and instead

change the web bonus to 5%/level instead of 10% and then PUBLICLY TEST IT


+1 definitely the way to go.

DD might also need some extra armor HP due to the difficulty of buffer tanking on it.

Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase

Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza....
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#45 - 2013-11-27 08:50:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus

If that were true then those two ships would be the most flown faction ships out there in pvp, wich they are not. (Vindicator being high on the list though) You dont really see a lot of DD's in low sec compared to a lot of the other faction frigs, wich tells me its quite well balanced. The fact that eaf's, t1 frigs and af's have been boosted a lot the last few years, have actually lead to the fact that killing a daredevil is a lot easier now then before.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-11-27 08:52:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.



Is that the reason why the blood raiders web bonus is different on the cruiser and battleship size? That kind of makes sense. Can you spare any words on your FEELING ( i know its not a statement or promise or anything, just want to understand the view from game balance team) about if you think the web bonuses on the blood raiders ships are not as offensive to balance currently?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Cordelia Mulholland IV
Hum Bole Enterprises
#47 - 2013-11-27 08:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cordelia Mulholland IV
IMHO bringing links on grid is probably a good start to nerfing these ships. Almost every Daredevil that I come across has links in system. They aren't very good without them and are easily countered. Not sure that many people are going to risk expensive command ships for a pirate frig. Same applies to a Vigi but less so - it's 50m3 drones help in a lot of situations so it survives a bit better without links. The Vindi is the beast that it is. It'd be a shame to change it much, but it does tower above all other battleships. With faction webs and links it's hilariously OP. Having links on grid with a Vindi? Yeah fine, it makes sense. To keep the web bonus and rebalance it is going to be kinda tricky.

Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
I am telling you right here and right now - my vote will be with my account subscriptions.

I genuinely lol'd at that. Thanks for brightening up my day. It was a joke right? I mean, no EvE player would threaten to rage quit because a couple of OP ships are at some point going to be rebalanced somehow... right???
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-11-27 08:57:10 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not agree with this change. Serpentis ships are supposed to be THE brawlers, the best close range ships in game. They have the dps and they have the webs + tracking to apply that dps, but they lack the range of alternatives and they don't have the toughest of tanks. In my view, that's perfectly balanced outside of a certain pve activity.

I don't mind if you mess with Serpentis' tracking, but if you intend to severely reduce or even remove the web bonus, an iconic element of those ships, I will not support that move. I am telling you right here and right now - my vote will be with my account subscriptions.

Go and do as you deem necessary and I'll do so as well.



You know very well that would be that or their damage bonus. In high sec at elast they are the only pirate ships seen in PVP.

I just hope CCP dont over do it. And I also hope they keep the bonus on the ashimmu since this ship is already weak and the bonus is the only thing on it tha makes it have a use.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#49 - 2013-11-27 09:27:22 UTC
People actually fly the Ashimmu?
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-11-27 09:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People actually fly the Ashimmu?


Only the misguided people that think it somehow out-performs or performs on a level close to either a Curse or a Rapier/Huginn; which it doesn't, but it is easier to get into, so I suppose there is that.

It can find a place in a gate camp, but outside of that it's a pretty stale ship.
Mind Rape
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-11-27 09:53:28 UTC
CCP, making all ships in the "sandbox" literally the same, for an unknown reason - perhaps to prevent having to read "feedback" that they "value and consider".
Pathetic.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#52 - 2013-11-27 10:08:39 UTC
Mind **** wrote:
CCP, making all ships in the "sandbox" literally the same, for an unknown reason - perhaps to prevent having to read "feedback" that they "value and consider".
Pathetic.

Yep, like they did with Marauders when they gave them bastion mode and MJD bonus making them literally the same as all other ships.
The bubble immunity combined with the warp changes also makes Interceptors literally the same as all other ships.
Introducing specialised bays for haulers also made them literally the same as all other ships.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-11-27 10:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Xolve wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People actually fly the Ashimmu?


Only the misguided people that think it somehow out-performs or performs on a level close to either a Curse or a Rapier/Huginn; which it doesn't, but it is easier to get into, so I suppose there is that.

It can find a place in a gate camp, but outside of that it's a pretty stale ship.



You realize that for peopel that fly solo or nearly solo, a ship that looks inferior is a much better way to find someone willing to engage?

Flying the best ship is easy... getting fights while flying in the best ship or largest gang is not.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2013-11-27 10:16:05 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
The Daredevil seems to be a ship centered around solo PvP... When you remove the very thing that makes it so effective at solo PvP, Why would you even use it in the first place? The only thing that gives these ships their power IS the 90%, and its not like these ships are immune to everything... There are plenty of counters to the Daredevil / 90% web... Neuts, damps, jammers - basically any ewar besides TD the Daredevil is useless against.


I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.

This sums it up. So will fedwebs, so sell those too.


yes everyone should immediately sell their FN webs for whatever they can got PANIC NOW

*quietly logs in Jita alt

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#55 - 2013-11-27 10:17:58 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


What was so wrong with them that they needed alteration?


People weren't using them much before


Dambit Grath, you're supposed to leave at least a small gap before answering your own question.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#56 - 2013-11-27 10:20:37 UTC
I think "adapt or die" is relevant to this thread.

Changes are not necessarily bad, and we don't know *any*thing about what will happen to these ships.

They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-11-27 10:33:19 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You realize that for peopel that fly solo or nearly solo, a ship that looks inferior is a much better way to find someone willing to engage?

Flying the best ship is easy... getting fights while flying in the best ship or largest gang is not.


Oh please tell me about literally anyone's willingness to go up against a neut boat, no matter how pointless and stupid in a non-forced engagement. Highsec or not, dudes are going to run if they can.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-11-27 10:35:04 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You realize that for peopel that fly solo or nearly solo, a ship that looks inferior is a much better way to find someone willing to engage?

Flying the best ship is easy... getting fights while flying in the best ship or largest gang is not.


Oh please tell me about literally anyone's willingness to go up against a neut boat, no matter how pointless and stupid in a non-forced engagement. Highsec or not, dudes are going to run if they can.



You would be surprised..... and if they are so fearfull as you said, then they are not useless as you also said. So you are contradicting yourself.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-11-27 10:44:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You would be surprised..... and if they are so fearfull as you said, then they are not useless as you also said. So you are contradicting yourself.


Nobody wants to sit there neuted out, unable to defend themselves while they are plinked away and eventually killed if caught off a gate/station by drones. It's not a 'fear' situation, it's a 'I don't want to sit here for 20 minutes waiting for this nerd to kill me so I can save my implants' situation.

That being said- Personally, I'd always go for a solo Ashimmu- because that ship is weak, and they are going to eat ****.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2013-11-27 10:45:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


They can remain unique and with a clear serpentis without 90% web.


The realm of Fozzie and Rise's creativity seems to be limited to 'add tracking /damage/tanking/optimal range bonuses and then add an ROF bonus and then give it a mwd sig reduction and we've now made that ship balanced and unique".

You see I know because they've had all t1 and t2 ships save recons now to 'be creative' with and all we've gotten in return is 200 flavors of what I just said.

These ships are unique now, and having these two snow flakes put a little magic in them along with that french guy who ignored 300 pages of user feed back does NOT inspire confidence when they just got done going through and making every ship a generic version of each other.

Pray tell fine poster what bonus could be given over to the Serpentis line that would keep their unique feel and performance while not being the same stupid bonuses that have been given to the other ships already?


Maybe something like a web bonus right?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.