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[NERF] Serpentis web bonus change

First post First post First post
Author
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#21 - 2013-11-27 04:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

This was inevitable.

You ruined heavy, medium, and light drones in missions and anom's with the moronic changes to the AI, ignoring massive amounts of feedback, because you knew better than everyone else.
You ruined the Paladin and Kronos, ignoring a 380 page threadnaught, because you knew better than everyone else.

Now, you will ruin the Daredevil, Vigilant, and Vindi, ignoring massive pre-emptive feedback, because you know better than everyone else.

You are more of a plague on this game than the goons.


When the CCP Devs don't listen to us, vitriol like that is almost certainly the reason. I don't know what it is that makes you overreact so hysterically to things.

By the way, I just want to point out that I took a pulse-fitted Paladin on a tour of the entire New Eden cluster recently, shooting at whatever ridiculous anoms I could find. It worked pretty well without a web even fitted, let alone bonused. The best part? I only lost one drone because I pushed its HP a little too far - I could have easily saved it at any time before that.

Nothing has been ruined here except your precious shiny incursion fleet, and nothing has ruined it except your unwillingness to adapt in a game whose motto is "Adapt or Die".


Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Was the drone assist exploit ever addressed? Where do we stand with off-grid boosting? Sovereignty? Do we mention how battleships are now more or less useless in a solo role outside of a fleet, or was that the intent?

You may not find this as amusing as I do, but most of these questions were answered in the AMA.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-11-27 04:59:40 UTC
Endovior wrote:
The fact that you're arguing against the idea of a rebalance, based on essentially a rumour about that rebalance, without any real information as to the specifics of that rebalance, or even the proposed direction of that rebalance, is pretty much just ranting.

People are understandable trying to avoid that kind of situation when CCP actually publish a new "rebalance pass", concept of which is already set in stone and only open for a few minor tweaks by that time.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-11-27 05:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
The Daredevil seems to be a ship centered around solo PvP... When you remove the very thing that makes it so effective at solo PvP, Why would you even use it in the first place? The only thing that gives these ships their power IS the 90%, and its not like these ships are immune to everything... There are plenty of counters to the Daredevil / 90% web... Neuts, damps, jammers - basically any ewar besides TD the Daredevil is useless against.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#24 - 2013-11-27 05:04:32 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
People are understandable trying to avoid that kind of situation when CCP actually publish a new "rebalance pass", concept of which is already set in stone and only open for a few minor tweaks by that time.

The concept was already set in stone back in the Marauder thread. This is just further indication of what's coming.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#25 - 2013-11-27 05:06:18 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

This was inevitable.

You ruined heavy, medium, and light drones in missions and anom's with the moronic changes to the AI, ignoring massive amounts of feedback, because you knew better than everyone else.
You ruined the Paladin and Kronos, ignoring a 380 page threadnaught, because you knew better than everyone else.

Now, you will ruin the Daredevil, Vigilant, and Vindi, ignoring massive pre-emptive feedback, because you know better than everyone else.

You are more of a plague on this game than the goons.


When the CCP Devs don't listen to us, vitriol like that is almost certainly the reason. I don't know what it is that makes you overreact so hysterically to things.

By the way, I just want to point out that I took a pulse-fitted Paladin on a tour of the entire New Eden cluster recently, shooting at whatever ridiculous anoms I could find. It worked pretty well without a web even fitted, let alone bonused. Nothing has been ruined except your precious shiny incursion fleet.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Was the drone assist exploit ever addressed? Where do we stand with off-grid boosting? Sovereignty? Do we mention how battleships are now more or less useless in a solo role outside of a fleet, or was that the intent?


You may not find this as amusing as I do, but these questions were answered in the AMA.


Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#26 - 2013-11-27 05:08:16 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
The Daredevil seems to be a ship centered around solo PvP... When you remove the very thing that makes it so effective at solo PvP, Why would you even use it in the first place? The only thing that gives these ships their power IS the 90%, and its not like these ships are immune to everything... There are plenty of counters to the Daredevil / 90% web... Neuts, camps, jammers - basically any ewar besides TD the Daredevil is useless against.


I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#27 - 2013-11-27 05:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".


I'm very bad at saying things the way I want them to be said the first time around. Take another look.

I generally try to make all my edits quickly before someone has an opportunity to respond to, like or quote me.

And one more thing - I never said the Paladin was ruined for incursions. I said YOUR FLEET is ruined for incursions - which it is - unless you adapt.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth and stick to wrapping yourself in shiny shiny tinfoil.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-11-27 05:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
The Daredevil seems to be a ship centered around solo PvP... When you remove the very thing that makes it so effective at solo PvP, Why would you even use it in the first place? The only thing that gives these ships their power IS the 90%, and its not like these ships are immune to everything... There are plenty of counters to the Daredevil / 90% web... Neuts, damps, jammers - basically any ewar besides TD the Daredevil is useless against.


I should get on my Jita alt and see how much Daredevil prices have dropped in the past hour.
The ship will be worthless within 24 hours.

This sums it up. So will fedwebs, so sell those too.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#29 - 2013-11-27 05:11:11 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Ah, nice to see you finally admit that the Paladin was indeed ruined for Incursions.
Before, it was the standard lie "oh no, the ship will be fine, you have to adapt".


I'm very bad at saying things the way I want them to be said the first time around. Take another look.

I generally try to make all my edits quickly before someone has an opportunity to respond to, like or quote me.


Nice try with the spin.
Total revamp, now that I have caught you in your original lie.

Too bad I did copy your post so we could all see your coverup.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#30 - 2013-11-27 05:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Nice try with the spin.
Total revamp, now that I have caught you in your original lie.

Too bad I did copy your post so we could all see your coverup.


Except that you can plainly see see my edit is timestamped 5:05 while your post is timestamped 5:06. Nice try. Troll elsewhere.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#31 - 2013-11-27 05:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You may not find this as amusing as I do, but most of these questions were answered in the AMA.

You realize there's over 1300 comments, right? You mean these "enlightening" answers?
.....

Off-grid Boosting
"Yes, boosting mechanics definitely on the radar. They depend on some technical changes taking place which are difficult and therefor hard to predict in terms of timeline. Once that's in place we will look at these mechanics again."

Drone Assist
"Tough question, I wouldn't say 'happy', but I also don't really think drones are the thing to focus on. The assist mechanic is something we talk about quite a lot and it's a wide-reaching discussion that includes other examples of one player directing the actions of many (fleet warp for instance). Not sure exactly how that will pan out yet. On top of that there's the actual drone balance and the interface associated with it, both of which we hope to work on before too long."

Sovereignty
"We know the sov system and super caps need work, but I can't say exactly when either will go to TQ.
I really feel weird about the starting point that 'X system is broken, when will it get fixed'. A lot of these systems are really large and complex, and they are getting used by tons and tons of people. If it was literally broken there wouldn't be much risk in just ripping it out and starting over, but because so much of the game happens around systems like Sov, we have to be very delicate with changes.
That said, there are a lot of pieces we aren't happy with, and hopefully we see steady improvement over the next several releases as we continue doing balance work (eventually caps/super caps) and as we keep working on the big core game systems like sov."

RLMLs
"Personally, I think frigs are one of the hardest ways to learn.
If you can I would try to sort out enough ISK to move up to cruisers. Right now, find a cruiser that can kill interceptors and you should be able to find some success because those little buggers are everywhere."

Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#32 - 2013-11-27 05:15:04 UTC
Yes, as disappointed as you may or may not be, those would be the answers I mentioned. I never said they were amazing answers.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#33 - 2013-11-27 05:23:00 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Yes, as disappointed as you may or may not be, those would be the answers I mentioned. I never said they were amazing answers.

Well, I think most would agree that these come across as a huge "maybe".

"I really like working with the player base. People can be really harsh so it's difficult some times but since I'm from the player base I feel really dedicated to making the most of the relationship that I can. I think there's a lot of value in maintaining that relationship even if it's challenging at times."

That's priceless.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#34 - 2013-11-27 05:47:41 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:


Marauders(re-cap)
"I haven't flown one yet because I'm super cheap and scared to lose money."


Love this one.
The guy was directly involved in destroying the class, but has never flown one.
Indeed priceless.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-11-27 06:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
edit: just so this isn't a rant, if they actually change them into something equally "unique" and good playstyle then i'm okay with that, but if they take the RLML approach then yea it's a rant..

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-11-27 06:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
It's funny how some people's idea of "balancing" is "everything should remain exactly as it is right now".
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-11-27 06:54:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I think there's a couple of problems with you OP, but I can see that there's a bit of confusion stemming from how quickly the question got answered in a AMA format.

I'll start by confirming that some kind of change to the Serpentis and Blood Raider web bonus is something we have been thinking about for a while.

Web strength bonuses are some of the most powerful bonuses available to any ship, which makes them very interesting and valuable but also makes some of their results problematic. Interestingly, the way the strength of the bonus presents itself is very different in different contexts. At the frigate level with the Daredevil, the power of 90% webs primarily comes from range control. At the battleship level with the Vindicator it primarily comes from transversal control (especially when used as a force multiplier). At the cruiser level it falls in the middle and ends up being (relatively speaking) less powerful and less oppressive as a result.
I am not going to try to claim that we have our plan of action worked out, and there will be plenty of discussion before we implement our Pirate ship balance pass.

One thing I can say for sure though is that we consider the solo Daredevil and the force multiplier Vindicator to both be too strong in their current states, and that we recognize that the primary source of their disproportionate power is the web bonus (for different reasons as I said above).

Another thing I can say for sure is that we will never base our design decisions on what Nyancat has stockpiled or not stockpiled.


The web bonus makes the ships unique, its what sets them apart from the garden variety Gallent ships, if you remove that, you might as well make things like cynabals and drams slower than minmatar ships, since what sets them apart is speed.

You're currently threatening to remove literally the single reason for flying the DD, Vindi, or Vigilant, and what will you give it in return, some craptastic damage or tracking bonuses that will essentially make all the t1 t2 and pirate ships the same with nothing at all that stands one apart from the other?

That sounds incredibly stupid and I hope some great natural disaster ends you and Rise long before that happens, because i think you've officially forgotten what the word 'variety' means.

If your change goes through, the Throrax, Deimos, and Vigilant will be left to be basically all the same ******** version of themselves, and then what??

Seriously, if you do this, you should consider quitting CCP and going back to being a player so you can see what kind of idiocy you're doing to the balance of the game, and by balance, i mean your incessant drive to make EVERYTHING the same.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2013-11-27 06:56:30 UTC
CCP's balance teams idea of a good game: All ships are essentially only slight variations of each other and the only thing that matters is how many warm bodies you can stuff a system with until the games weak ass architecture craps itself.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-11-27 07:00:19 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
It's funny how some people's idea of "balancing" is "everything should remain exactly as it is right now".


And its funny that the idea that some of the ships are out of balance meant that CCP had to balance all of them.

Pirate ships are largely fine with the exception of a few.

Angel ships, fine, one and all

Serpentis ships, Vigilant could use some love but the other two are fine

Blood ships, Bhal is fine, cruiser and frigate need work

Guristas ships the Worm needed help, the other two are fine

Sansha's ships, the Nightmare is iconic and perfectly fine as is, the cruiser and frigate need drastic fixes.



People say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" for a reason, the Pilgrim languishes for years untouched and unloved but the good pirate ships, oh no we have to balance those.

Seriously, know when to keep your hands off something because its working fine.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-11-27 07:13:46 UTC
I'm sorry, but I cannot and will not agree with this change. Serpentis ships are supposed to be THE brawlers, the best close range ships in game. They have the dps and they have the webs + tracking to apply that dps, but they lack the range of alternatives and they don't have the toughest of tanks. In my view, that's perfectly balanced outside of a certain pve activity.

I don't mind if you mess with Serpentis' tracking, but if you intend to severely reduce or even remove the web bonus, an iconic element of those ships, I will not support that move. I am telling you right here and right now - my vote will be with my account subscriptions.

Go and do as you deem necessary and I'll do so as well.