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Mobile Depot - Game Breaking Feature

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#181 - 2013-11-26 18:18:40 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Arguing with you people is like arguing with the lobotomized.

My last word is - it will be changed, either they will nerf it or they will lose pvp'rs.


We throw around the term delusional a lot around here, but no other word fits. The bolded part is the worse, the classic "appeal to CCPs wallet" BS.

In that last sentence you demonstrate that you think other people will respond (irrationally) like you have. The problem is, not to many other people have the same problem you do. Despite mobile depots, PVE ships are fallingout of the sky left right up down and sideways in null sec now (because this is EVE, the game that gives people tools....that they ignore even after getting blown up lol).

Feel free to be mad that CCP is giving people more tools with which to generate interesting game play (the epic carebear who refits and fights you off deserves to win), but don't bother with thinking anyone else agrees with you, least of all CCP.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#182 - 2013-11-26 18:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:

By ensuring he doesn't get the chance to fit nothing but WCSes or by bringing more misdlots or by using methods that don't care about warp stability points.[\quote]


Lets play a little scenario.

I'm in a Apocalypse, shooting Bloods in a Sanctum. You're in an interceptor, lets say its a Crow and you're with a friend also in a Crow. You have 2 friends who are in Cynabals. You're going to jump into a renter system, the in system side has 10 large T1 bubbles on the gate (as they usually do) and warp to the only Sanctum and tackle whatever is there. I have a depot deployed. I have 8 heavy neuts. Cap booster. Warrior 2's. 3 webs. 8 WCS. Some sensor damps and the depot filled with Cap Boost 400's.

How do you propose you're going to kill me?

Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range. During which time all your Warriors are easily dead, the Cynabals are on you in lets give you a generous 30 seconds, giving them 60 seconds to burn through your massive 31k EHP. Meaning between two Cynabals they only need to do 500dps.... So in reality they only need 30 seconds to kill you after they warp in.
So all the Interceptor has to do is hold you there by bumps or scrams for 30 seconds, which given you have to refit then align as you were at 0 speed isn't too much to ask, and then between the three of them you are easily held. at which point you are still 30 seconds away from even locking the interceptor when you die. So your heavy neuts & webs never even enter the game.

These times are of course, somewhat generous in your favour, and with the right implants & skill, that's probably 40 seconds, not 60 they take to kill you.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2013-11-26 18:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jythier Smith wrote:
Oh, is there no way to tell when they're taking down their depot? That would make things more difficult. I was thinking DSCAN personally.

You can't DSCAN that. Even if you could, you would have to be in system. One of the reasons that CCP introduced the changes to inties is because as soon as you enter system normally you have literally seconds before a ratter warps to POS or station. They don't sit there and let you dscan them. But they're usually stupid and go to the highest level anom in the system so if you jump an inty in and warp to the highest level anom you can now catch a ratter who is not aligned.

Well should be able to catch a ratter however the geniuses at CCP decided that you could refit while under attack so now given that an intie can usually only fit and run one disruptor (its bonuses capwise to be able to do that) they will simply see the intie enter system, they will click their depot, fit the wcs, scoop the depot and warp out.

Zero has changed in regards to making inties useful, instead of making it easier to catch people, they've made it literally impossible to catch anyone with a depot. Having played EVE for a while, its easy to predict that every ratter will soon be sitting beside a depot in the future.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#184 - 2013-11-26 18:25:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:

By ensuring he doesn't get the chance to fit nothing but WCSes or by bringing more misdlots or by using methods that don't care about warp stability points.[\quote]


Lets play a little scenario.

I'm in a Apocalypse, shooting Bloods in a Sanctum. You're in an interceptor, lets say its a Crow and you're with a friend also in a Crow. You have 2 friends who are in Cynabals. You're going to jump into a renter system, the in system side has 10 large T1 bubbles on the gate (as they usually do) and warp to the only Sanctum and tackle whatever is there. I have a depot deployed. I have 8 heavy neuts. Cap booster. Warrior 2's. 3 webs. 8 WCS. Some sensor damps and the depot filled with Cap Boost 400's.

How do you propose you're going to kill me?

Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range. During which time all your Warriors are easily dead, the Cynabals are on you in lets give you a generous 30 seconds, giving them 60 seconds to burn through your massive 31k EHP. Meaning between two Cynabals they only need to do 500dps.... So in reality they only need 30 seconds to kill you after they warp in.
So all the Interceptor has to do is hold you there by bumps or scrams for 30 seconds, which given you have to refit then align as you were at 0 speed isn't too much to ask, and then between the three of them you are easily held. at which point you are still 30 seconds away from even locking the interceptor when you die. So your heavy neuts & webs never even enter the game.

These times are of course, somewhat generous in your favour, and with the right implants & skill, that's probably 40 seconds, not 60 they take to kill you.


Infinity Ziona getting beat down with facts, it must be Tuesday.
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#185 - 2013-11-26 18:26:21 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Also, you limited yourself to 2 Intys, 2 Cruisers. 1 Inty, 1 Dictor, 2 Cruisers is a much better option for the scenario of "trying to kill the most pathologically well prepared ratter in EVE".

OHHH so now to catch a single ratting ship in eve we require an inty, a dictor and 2 cruisers minimum.


No, to kill the most pathologically well prepared ratting battleship in the game, you probably need a Dictor, and maybe some other stuff.

For the more normal well prepared ratting ship, who doesn't immediately drop an MD as soon as he lands on an anom, you just need to do ~18k damage in the first minute (300 average DPS).

EDIT: My mistake, you only need to do ~3750 damage in the first 60s (62.5dps)

Quote:
I didn't fit inties with disruptors, CCP fit inties with disruptors.


I just assembled an Inty hull. Where's my CCP-fitted disruptor?


Did you follow the instructions to the letter? Do you have any pieces remaining after assembly?

Have you tried turning it off and then back on again?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#186 - 2013-11-26 18:27:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jythier Smith wrote:
Oh, is there no way to tell when they're taking down their depot? That would make things more difficult. I was thinking DSCAN personally.

You can't DSCAN that. Even if you could, you would have to be in system. One of the reasons that CCP introduced the changes to inties is because as soon as you enter system normally you have literally seconds before a ratter warps to POS or station. They don't sit there and let you dscan them. But they're usually stupid and go to the highest level anom in the system so if you jump an inty in and warp to the highest level anom you can now catch a ratter who is not aligned.

Well should be able to catch a ratter however the geniuses at CCP decided that you could refit while under attack so now given that an intie can usually only fit and run one disruptor (its bonuses capwise to be able to do that) they will simply see the intie enter system, they will click their depot, fit the wcs, scoop the depot and warp out.

Zero has changed in regards to making inties useful, instead of making it easier to catch people, they've made it literally impossible to catch anyone with a depot. Having played EVE for a while, its easy to predict that every ratter will soon be sitting beside a depot in the future.


Didn't you say in your last post that you were done posting?
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#187 - 2013-11-26 18:29:27 UTC
Isn't this still coming down to "A properly prepared opponent can get away before I can get them locked down"? Is that really not the way it should be?

If you set your sights on a target, you should just be able to lock them down?
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#188 - 2013-11-26 18:32:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Fail argument - Bring an heavy interdictor. Cause they can cloak in WH right? Won't work on T3s without focused.
Fail argument - fit more scrams. So a tackler now needs to fit up to 4 scrams to tackle one ship.
Fail argument - anchor a bubble. So we warp in, ask the guy to wait while we deploy a bubble and it anchors. Won't work on T3,s.
Fail argument - bring friends. Because the only way we should be able to catch a single ship is by ganking them. Remember for each ship you'll need a focused interdictor or a tackler with at least 4 scrams, for 8 low slot ships one will need to be a +3 of course.
Fail argument - put it into reinforced. It has 18k EHP. To reinforce it before he can right click and auto load his fit you're going to need about 3kdps.

No. None of those arguments fail. Quite the opposite, in fact: they provide working and easily available solutions to the (non-)problem. Just beacause you can't or won't employ strategies that work doesn't mean the strategies are invalid.

Quote:
We need this depot fixed such that it cannot be used during combat.
Why?

You're fantastic as saying nothing while sounding like the authoritive voice of CCP. That's pretty much what you did there say nothing and pretend you provided an answer.


LMAO Looks like you found the formula that sums up tippia in a nut shell.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-11-26 18:32:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:

By ensuring he doesn't get the chance to fit nothing but WCSes or by bringing more misdlots or by using methods that don't care about warp stability points.[\quote]


Lets play a little scenario.

I'm in a Apocalypse, shooting Bloods in a Sanctum. You're in an interceptor, lets say its a Crow and you're with a friend also in a Crow. You have 2 friends who are in Cynabals. You're going to jump into a renter system, the in system side has 10 large T1 bubbles on the gate (as they usually do) and warp to the only Sanctum and tackle whatever is there. I have a depot deployed. I have 8 heavy neuts. Cap booster. Warrior 2's. 3 webs. 8 WCS. Some sensor damps and the depot filled with Cap Boost 400's.

How do you propose you're going to kill me?

Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range. During which time all your Warriors are easily dead, the Cynabals are on you in lets give you a generous 30 seconds, giving them 60 seconds to burn through your massive 31k EHP. Meaning between two Cynabals they only need to do 500dps.... So in reality they only need 30 seconds to kill you after they warp in.
So all the Interceptor has to do is hold you there by bumps or scrams for 30 seconds, which given you have to refit then align as you were at 0 speed isn't too much to ask, and then between the three of them you are easily held. at which point you are still 30 seconds away from even locking the interceptor when you die. So your heavy neuts & webs never even enter the game.

These times are of course, somewhat generous in your favour, and with the right implants & skill, that's probably 40 seconds, not 60 they take to kill you.


Infinity Ziona getting beat down with facts, it must be Tuesday.

Apoc has 7 low slots. Do you know how fast you can unfit your lows and fit your wcs? It'll be long gone before those Cynabals even clear the bubble.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#190 - 2013-11-26 18:35:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:

By ensuring he doesn't get the chance to fit nothing but WCSes or by bringing more misdlots or by using methods that don't care about warp stability points.[\quote]


Lets play a little scenario.

I'm in a Apocalypse, shooting Bloods in a Sanctum. You're in an interceptor, lets say its a Crow and you're with a friend also in a Crow. You have 2 friends who are in Cynabals. You're going to jump into a renter system, the in system side has 10 large T1 bubbles on the gate (as they usually do) and warp to the only Sanctum and tackle whatever is there. I have a depot deployed. I have 8 heavy neuts. Cap booster. Warrior 2's. 3 webs. 8 WCS. Some sensor damps and the depot filled with Cap Boost 400's.

How do you propose you're going to kill me?

Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range. During which time all your Warriors are easily dead, the Cynabals are on you in lets give you a generous 30 seconds, giving them 60 seconds to burn through your massive 31k EHP. Meaning between two Cynabals they only need to do 500dps.... So in reality they only need 30 seconds to kill you after they warp in.
So all the Interceptor has to do is hold you there by bumps or scrams for 30 seconds, which given you have to refit then align as you were at 0 speed isn't too much to ask, and then between the three of them you are easily held. at which point you are still 30 seconds away from even locking the interceptor when you die. So your heavy neuts & webs never even enter the game.

These times are of course, somewhat generous in your favour, and with the right implants & skill, that's probably 40 seconds, not 60 they take to kill you.


Infinity Ziona getting beat down with facts, it must be Tuesday.

Apoc has 7 low slots. Do you know how fast you can unfit your lows and fit your wcs? It'll be long gone before those Cynabals even clear the bubble.


DICTOR.
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#191 - 2013-11-26 18:40:12 UTC
Without this new mobile depot, there is no way to get away from your interceptor. Here's how it plays out without it:

Int hits local.
Immediately start align/warp procedures to station.
Int is on me and has locked me.

Does that seem right to you?

I'm watching local, doing my thing, and you can, from out of system, jump in and lock me down before I can react at all?

The battle shouldn't be a foregone conclusion like that. There needs to be an escape. Not to make it 'easy' to rat, but to make it 'possible' to get away. You're basically saying 'it is impossible to kill' but what you're asking for is to make it impossible to not kill.
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2013-11-26 18:40:18 UTC
All the new structures are great and add a new level of strategy to the game. I like them yes, yes I do.Pirate
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#193 - 2013-11-26 18:42:37 UTC
They certainly add structure to the game.
Ot3ma
#194 - 2013-11-26 18:46:26 UTC
I didn't bring a big enough bucket to collect the tears in this thread...
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#195 - 2013-11-26 18:48:29 UTC
Ot3ma wrote:
I didn't bring a big enough bucket to collect the tears in this thread...


You should upgrade to L buckets.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2013-11-26 18:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Lets play a little scenario.

I'm in a Apocalypse, shooting Bloods in a Sanctum. You're in an interceptor, lets say its a Crow and you're with a friend also in a Crow. You have 2 friends who are in Cynabals. You're going to jump into a renter system, the in system side has 10 large T1 bubbles on the gate (as they usually do) and warp to the only Sanctum and tackle whatever is there. I have a depot deployed. I have 8 heavy neuts. Cap booster. Warrior 2's. 3 webs. 8 WCS. Some sensor damps and the depot filled with Cap Boost 400's.

How do you propose you're going to kill me?

Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range. During which time all your Warriors are easily dead, the Cynabals are on you in lets give you a generous 30 seconds, giving them 60 seconds to burn through your massive 31k EHP. Meaning between two Cynabals they only need to do 500dps.... So in reality they only need 30 seconds to kill you after they warp in.
So all the Interceptor has to do is hold you there by bumps or scrams for 30 seconds, which given you have to refit then align as you were at 0 speed isn't too much to ask, and then between the three of them you are easily held. at which point you are still 30 seconds away from even locking the interceptor when you die. So your heavy neuts & webs never even enter the game.

These times are of course, somewhat generous in your favour, and with the right implants & skill, that's probably 40 seconds, not 60 they take to kill you.


Infinity Ziona getting beat down with facts, it must be Tuesday.

Apoc has 7 low slots. Do you know how fast you can unfit your lows and fit your wcs? It'll be long gone before those Cynabals even clear the bubble.


DICTOR.

Last I checked dictors didn't get bubble immunity. While your dictor is mwd'ing the renter bubble camp your Apoc is docking... The whole point of the changes to inties was so they could tackle shite... ffs Now you're suggesting its cool they can't do that cause dictors can?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#197 - 2013-11-26 18:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jythier Smith wrote:
Isn't this still coming down to "A properly prepared opponent can get away before I can get them locked down"? Is that really not the way it should be?
Yes.

Well… except for the part where you can quite easily ruin all the preparation in a single shot, but it requires some sneaking and finesse to get that shot in.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
Last I checked dictors didn't get bubble immunity. While your dictor is mwd'ing the renter bubble camp your Apoc is docking... The whole point of the changes to inties was so they could tackle shite... ffs Now you're suggesting its cool they can't do that cause dictors can?

…so in the first instance, nothing has changed, and in the second instance, the point of the change was that inties could now overtake fleeing ships and… well… intercept them. As it happens, depots do not interfere with that particular aspect at all.
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
#198 - 2013-11-26 18:55:42 UTC
Roggle wrote:
Today i found a raven in a wormhole, tackled it. He had setup a mobile depot and refit to warp core stabs to escape (very clever). I cant imagine this was its primary purpose but its seems like it could be abused. Solo is hard enough without have to bring 3 faction scrams to make sure you can catch PVE BS. I think that maybe you should not be able to refit if you have an agression timmer. Am I the only one who thinks this is a silly game mechanic or am i way off? Thanks


So what would you have done if he already had stabs fitted? How is this situation any different from before?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2013-11-26 18:57:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Here is the actual answer.
For a start it will take you 90 seconds to lock the Crow. With your 22km Lock range.

Suddenly bastion's ewar immunity sounds even more enticing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#200 - 2013-11-26 19:02:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Last I checked dictors didn't get bubble immunity. While your dictor is mwd'ing the renter bubble camp your Apoc is docking... The whole point of the changes to inties was so they could tackle shite... ffs Now you're suggesting its cool they can't do that cause dictors can?



YOU said "Cynabal", I said "DICTOR". in your own example you are using the wrong ships.

Prior to the warp changes, a single dictor wouldn't have caught an aware Apoc anyway. Now because of warp changes AND inties being nullified, the inty has a much better chance of catcing something. The BALANCE to this is the mobile depot which lets the barttleship (which is now in more danger of getting caught than they would be pre-rubicon) have a fighting chance to live.

I'll make you a deal then. Take way the mobile depot's ability to refit while in combat, but in return you have to give up the Interceptor's (a non-tech3 ship) ability to ignore bubbles. How about that?