These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

I Hate To Burst Your Bubble, But...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
XJennieX
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2011-11-20 19:15:39 UTC
i did not play back then but i heard this game had mines at some point. now that i could imagine went well with everyone laying huge minefields at gates etc..

anyways about bubbles. i think those are just fine as they are. there is so much things you can do to prevent getting into situation where you are "trapped" by bubbles.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#62 - 2011-11-20 19:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best bet is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2011-11-20 19:28:27 UTC
Maldranan wrote:
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Dude listen. Nullsec is not the endgame of EVE. You don't need to have 50mil SP to go there. You used to be able to come and go as you please. When I first started playing EVE in 2004, I went there. It was adventurous to say the least. Bubbles are nothing more than a low sec gate camp on steroids. And while a few players can get past them semi regularly, the vast majority do not. Just look at the choke points in your in game map.

I've gotten through a great many bubbled gate camps. In fact, I think I've gotten caught once since I came out to null.

The problem here seems to be that those arguing against bubbles seem to be far too obtuse to realize that there are many tactics for successfully using and avoiding bubbles. Honestly, if you had any experience in null-sec combat, you'd be complaining about blobs, not bubbles.

Elrich Kouvo wrote:
There is no glory or fun in setting a bunch of bookmarks up to try to evade an over powered I win button for gate campers.

The OP talked about superior preparation leading to victory. What do you suppose taking the time to create tactical warp points (i.e. bookmarks) is? Again, it basically shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.

I was pretty ignorant of the importance of bookmarks and the skillful use of bubbles until I had flown with a few good FCs, so I can understand the general lack of knowledge on the subject, but it has been addressed a few times already in this thread, so I'm not sure why this idea is persisting.

Lastly, RL != Eve. We're talking about comparing primitive, planet-side combat with different governing physical laws to advanced space combat spanning galaxies. Metaphors can be helpful, but don't take them so far.


I made the mistake of trying to have a serious discussion about it as well, but they aren't going to have it. The thread has devolved into simple trolling, if it was ever anything more than that. Notice how every flaw in their argument that has been pointed out (repeatedly) has been largely ignored?

Even the most basic one's, like

"If bubbles are the problem, why isn't low sec heavily populated?"...

or "Since there are a large number of ways to slip thru, avoid completely, or use the bubble against the defenders, why not take the time to learn how if you want into null so badly?"....

or "If literally thousands of people defeat bubbles on a daily basis in EVE, why can't you?"...

or "While it's great you want to slip in and take resources that others have built up, why exactly should it require no effort, planning, or skill to do so?"

Not much point in continuing the discussion, as they have no answer to even the most basic logic.

It seems pretty obvious to me that these folks have seen CCP make a large effort to placate the player base, and many of those changes have included what "appear" to be concession's to the desires of the high sec player base. Being typical EVE players they decided to launch a campaign to leverage their perceived advantage and push for every ill thought out, self serving, game breaking revision they can get.

Kudos for the effort, but frankly it's a waste of time.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#64 - 2011-11-20 19:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#65 - 2011-11-20 19:43:05 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

************

The best that I have seen ( like Duke Nukem said) were fresh out of "bubble gum" and didn't need it anyway.
Go look up Rooks and Kings on youtube for example...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2011-11-20 19:58:39 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Tippia, dahlink, must you parse posts?
Since it clarifies where the argument goes completely off the rails, yes. Yes I do.
The Old Chap wrote:
Dude, you speak for the many hi-sec dwellers, many of whom are vets (not all bitter) who prefer to do their own thing in hi-sec rather than submit themselves to the bubbled-up willy-waving megablob alliances that now dominate null.
Fun fact: EVE doesn't support “doing your own thing”. The game mechanics make it impossible. Funnier fact: the areas “dominated” by these purported megablob alliances show a surprising lack of bubbles and an even more surprising lack of alliance members from said megablobs.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#67 - 2011-11-20 20:19:14 UTC
Quote:
Look dude. I could care less about how animals eat and I am happy we got folks like you out there willing to learn that kinda stuff, but the fact is that warp bubbles are used for easy kills at choke points. No battle tactics about it. The OP is driving home the point that there is nothing like it in RL combat, and you should know that CCP put that in the game so nullsec could be a little more costly.


Cops use EMP's to shut down the engines on moving cars. They chase them into roadblocks. They use PITing tactics. I could go on to list military tactics but I have already listed 3 that you claim not to exist. Have a nice denial.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#68 - 2011-11-20 20:31:36 UTC
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

************

The best that I have seen ( like Duke Nukem said) were fresh out of "bubble gum" and didn't need it anyway.
Go look up Rooks and Kings on youtube for example...


A perfect example. You might also include old Burn Eden or Dirt Nap Squad on that list (among many).

These groups find the use of static defenses like bubbles by their targets to be perfect situations for them to turn the tables on the defenders of the bubble. They excel at turning the bubbles against those using them.

You proved my point perfectly. Thank you.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#69 - 2011-11-20 20:37:10 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

Oh I get it now. You are too new to EVE to understand the player you quoted.... Most players who have played EVE before bubbles know that they aren't as key to the gmes enjoyent as you think. But you are new and have never played EVE before them so I understand why you are unable to understand.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2011-11-20 20:42:50 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
A perfect example. You might also include old Burn Eden or Dirt Nap Squad on that list (among many).

These groups find the use of static defenses like bubbles by their targets to be perfect situations for them to turn the tables on the defenders of the bubble. They excel at turning the bubbles against those using them.

You proved my point perfectly. Thank you.
Shh! Don't mention Agincourt. Blink
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#71 - 2011-11-20 20:52:55 UTC
Elrich Kouvo wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

Oh I get it now. You are too new to EVE to understand the player you quoted.... Most players who have played EVE before bubbles know that they aren't as key to the gmes enjoyent as you think. But you are new and have never played EVE before them so I understand why you are unable to understand.


Nice try. Big smile

We can compare epeens if you like. How long were you involved in beta testing?

Troll on good sir.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
NUXI7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2011-11-20 20:58:57 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:

Such a device could only be dreamed up and implemented by people with no understanding of the nature of warfare. It's a ditty dropped into what has the potential to be a grand and sweeping arena to demonstrate capacities and capabilities turning it into nothing more than a "power up pill" in a child's computer game. Not surprisingly as a result it's fallen into promiscuous use. It's laughable enough the hallucination of "warp scramming" and "webbing" can be accomplished by another device, without having significantly damaged the function of a warship – you can "damage" a ship's ability to move without having damaged the ship. With the bubble, you can do this to ships in a large area, having fired not one shot.


"Submarines are underhanded, unfair, and damned un-English." -Admiral Sir Arthur Wilson, 1901. Wilson swore that any submariner captured by the Royal Navy would be hung as a pirate.
Comrade Commizzar
Eve Revolutionary Army
#73 - 2011-11-20 21:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Comrade Commizzar
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Comrade Commizzar wrote:
Pok Nibin:

While I salute your obvious comprehensive grasp of real world military concepts regarding aggressive or defensive postures as they are used in battle, Eve isn't based upon reality. The sad truth that you are coming to grips with is the extremely poor design of game mechanics that CCP "settled" upon as a means of forcing battles in a game populated by unimaginitive children.

This was done primarily to help avoid overly frustrating the mentally challenged PvP crowd who, despite scanning tools to find corporate infrastructure, were not only incapable of finding the enemy, but were equally inept at forcing a fight. CCP's solution was to provide the "flypaper" you see used at every gatecamp today. The net result of this thinking is that most of Eve has devolved into the less than appealing game of "Whack-a-Mole" .

On the other hand, there are certain groups within Eve that rely upon actual maneuvering and asymmetric force application. This is not seen that often because it requires the creative use of mental capacity to accomplish and these qualities are as alien to most of the denizens of Eve as Eve is alien itself. Your best best is to try to seek these happy few groups who do qualify and join them. Aside from that I am afraid you are doomed to dissatisfaction.


Indeed, you might actually spend some time talking to us. You'll find that such groups absolutely are in favor of leaving bubbles in the game. Blink

Troll on good sir.

************

The best that I have seen ( like Duke Nukem said) were fresh out of "bubble gum" and didn't need it anyway.
Go look up Rooks and Kings on youtube for example...


A perfect example. You might also include old Burn Eden or Dirt Nap Squad on that list (among many).

These groups find the use of static defenses like bubbles by their targets to be perfect situations for them to turn the tables on the defenders of the bubble. They excel at turning the bubbles against those using them.

You proved my point perfectly. Thank you.


*************
Well then I guess we will just have to agree to AGREE... the named groups are among the best... but being among the minority, are NOT the norm in Eve. Most bubbles are invovlved in "Whack-a-Mole", not displays of brilliant game play. The brilliant would'nt miss them if they disappeared tomorrow, and the game would become more interesting for it.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#74 - 2011-11-20 21:03:09 UTC
Oh **** you OP. I hate falling for trolls.

I even wrote a small piece involving logistics and you wrote something inane as a counter.

i was going to call you a tard, but you are not and obviously enjoying yourself.


9/10 nice work
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Jita Alt666
#75 - 2011-11-20 21:32:30 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Oh **** you OP. I hate falling for trolls.

I even wrote a small piece involving logistics and you wrote something inane as a counter.

i was going to call you a tard, but you are not and obviously enjoying yourself.


9/10 nice work



I have to agree - was tempted to write a reply to OP but after reading his meme laiden replies it seems he is not after discussion of an idea just slamming heads into a brick wall every 30 seconds.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#76 - 2011-11-20 22:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Oh **** you OP. I hate falling for trolls.

I even wrote a small piece involving logistics and you wrote something inane as a counter.

i was going to call you a tard, but you are not and obviously enjoying yourself.


9/10 nice work



I have to agree - was tempted to write a reply to OP but after reading his meme laiden replies it seems he is not after discussion of an idea just slamming heads into a brick wall every 30 seconds.
You're free to take that tack, but the "logistics" argument just isn't germane. If you want all the reasons trotted out for an obvious off target response in order for me to prove to you my credibility, I'm just not going to do it. As I said, logistics is useless if you don't keep your army in the field.

In fact, that point furthers my point: If logistics is to be the backbone of a fighting force, then the warp bubble takes away the need for logistics by adding a false circumstance which relieves the aggressor of any need to plan for, man and execute any kind of logistics.

Don't forget, when Germany attacked Russia (WWII), Russia responded by moving lock, stock and barrel eastward forcing the Germans to over-extend their supply lines. Then they came back in force and rolled the Germans back.
With warp bubbles such strategies are unnecessary.

My other "meme" responses, as you call them, are obviously aimed at ad hominem responses. So, I can only take your response to mean you have no relevant point to refute my OP.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2011-11-20 22:48:56 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
In fact, that point furthers my point: If logistics is to be the backbone of a fighting force, then the warp bubble takes away the need for logistics by adding a false circumstance which relieves the aggressor of any need to plan for, man and execute any kind of logistics.
The problem, of course, is that they don't take away that need.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#78 - 2011-11-20 22:50:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
In fact, that point furthers my point: If logistics is to be the backbone of a fighting force, then the warp bubble takes away the need for logistics by adding a false circumstance which relieves the aggressor of any need to plan for, man and execute any kind of logistics.
The problem, of course, is that they don't take away that need.

They don't? I guarantee you, without warp bubbles to engage in warfare would be extended warfare. Or, maybe you're referring to the "logistics" ships which are merely support vessels. The true logistics ship is a freighter, not a shield repper.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2011-11-20 22:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pok Nibin wrote:
They don't?
No. Bubbles have no effect on the need for logistics. Nor do they take away the need to plan for said logistics. In fact, they add to that planning.

At best, they alter the speed at which it can arrive through normal means (for both parties) or which routes are immediately available (which, again, is just a different way of affecting the speed). At worst, they have no effect on the logistics of the fight since bubbles can be trivially bypassed.

If anything, they generate the kind of over-stretching you mention in the eastern front example.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#80 - 2011-11-20 22:59:48 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Words.



First point: This is a game set in the future, interdiction bubbles are a futuristic idea, you may also note Napolean didn't have warp drives or neutron blasters.

Second Point: CCP didnt dream up interdiction bubbles, I remember in Star Wars theer being a class of star destroyer call an Interdictor that did exactly what dictors do in Eve.

Third Point: If you think dictors take away the need for skill, you havnt been in serious 0.0 warfare, a talanted dictor pilot can win you the fight, a crap dictor pilot can lose you your fleet.

Fourth Point: Clearly you are butthurt over your inability to win.

Did I miss many things? Tbh I didnt read much after page one.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.