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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#2161 - 2013-11-26 02:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Why the Drake (Edit:) and the Cylcone don't have bonuses for rapid light missiles?

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2162 - 2013-11-26 04:07:10 UTC
I say put the reload on RLMLs and RHMLs back to 10 seconds and leave the other stats. The ammunition capacity was already nerfed by 77.75%, the power grid requirements nearly doubled and most of the hulls don't bonus RLMLs or RHMLs anyway. Let the games begin!

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2163 - 2013-11-26 05:50:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I say put the reload on RLMLs and RHMLs back to 10 seconds and leave the other stats. The ammunition capacity was already nerfed by 77.75%, the power grid requirements nearly doubled and most of the hulls don't bonus RLMLs or RHMLs anyway. Let the games begin!


I'm sure Rise will agree with this as soon as he gets around to reading it. Cool
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2164 - 2013-11-26 07:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Niena Nuamzzar
He's skimming every other page, searching for "constructive feedback" only. I guess Bouh Revetoile is about to get a deluxe edition Caracal with golden ammo*.

--
* a hybrid of old and new - burst light missile launchers with 80 missiles per clip and 5 seconds reload
Luscius Uta
#2165 - 2013-11-26 08:57:11 UTC
After trying to see new RLMLs in action on my Gila, I can say that they are utter crap and that I will be fitting my Gila with HAMs from now on. I could live with 40 seconds reload time if clip size wasn't so awfully low that it almost halves your effective DPS (of course, missile DPS on Gila is crap anyway, but it's annoying to see your launchers spending almost half of their time reloading). Their ammo capacity should be at around 3x the current size (and that's still only about 60% of their pre-Rubicon capacity) to fix this problem.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Luscius Uta
#2166 - 2013-11-26 09:03:24 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Why the Drake (Edit:) and the Cylcone don't have bonuses for rapid light missiles?


Those ships are Battlecruisers, RLMLs are designed for Cruisers only (including their T2 variants, like Cerberus and Huginn).
Same reason why Damnation also doesn't get the bonus.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2167 - 2013-11-26 09:20:49 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
He's skimming every other page, searching for "constructive feedback" only. I guess Bouh Revetoile is about to get a deluxe edition Caracal with golden ammo*.

--
* a hybrid of old and new - burst light missile launchers with 80 missiles per clip and 5 seconds reload



Thing is, Bouh Revetoile is one of the only people who is actually talking sense in this thread and not ignoring the fact that there is more than "paper DPS" and tank to a ship fit.

Damage (and damage selection)
Damage Projection
Damage application
Tackle
Tank
Speed and agility

You need to consider everything when considering ship balance. An old style RLML Caracal had the ability to fit a standard cruiser tank. Deal decent DPS with excellent damage projection and excellent damage application with only "soft tackle" (disruptor only).

Yes. These theoretical Gallente gank cruisers look really amazeballs on paper and they probably can steam roller other ships of their class as long as they start the fight on their terms but they also have their weaknesses that are easily exploitable.

Yes. The new RLML's can be frustrating but also very powerful. The main problem that I see people having with them is that active tanked/heavily tanked, AB'ing frigates are difficult to kill without full tackle. This setup is the hard counter to this weapon system though so you need to find a way to beat them and deal with it.

The magazine size, ROFand reload time have been carefully selected so that your damage per minute isn't bonkers and also gives frigate users a bit of a chance to not just get curb stomped. This also balances the weapon vs cruisers.

The only issue this weapon has right now is the ammo switching problem which is being worked on.In the meantime, try to find the best use of these weapons for you without relying on cookie cutter fits of old.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2168 - 2013-11-26 09:34:28 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:


You need to consider everything when considering ship balance. An old style RLML Caracal had the ability to fit a standard cruiser tank. Deal decent DPS with excellent damage projection and excellent damage application with only "soft tackle" (disruptor only).

Yes. These theoretical Gallente gank cruisers look really amazeballs on paper and they probably can steam roller other ships of their class as long as they start the fight on their terms but they also have their weaknesses that are easily exploitable.

Yes. The new RLML's can be frustrating but also very powerful. The main problem that I see people having with them is that active tanked/heavily tanked, AB'ing frigates are difficult to kill without full tackle. This setup is the hard counter to this weapon system though so you need to find a way to beat them and deal with it.

The magazine size, ROFand reload time have been carefully selected so that your damage per minute isn't bonkers and also gives frigate users a bit of a chance to not just get curb stomped. This also balances the weapon vs cruisers.

The only issue this weapon has right now is the ammo switching problem which is being worked on.In the meantime, try to find the best use of these weapons for you without relying on cookie cutter fits of old.


There's nothing theoretical about them, they're all over low sec both solo and in fleets. They can comfortably fit 2 webs and a scram while doing the dps I was takling about. Yes you can do omg amazing dps, or have rofltank but I didn't quote those stats in any of my posts and I didn't see anyone else do that either, we were talking about realistic solo pvp fits. Fact is Vexor will melt the Caracal in a close range fight even if it's not blaster fit, and the same vexor should be able to stand it's ground against a RLML Caracal in a long range fight too, definitely now RLML has been handicapped, only thing saving the Caracal in a long range fight is the ability to over heat MWD and GTFO. The point of my posts on this was to show that the Caracal had it's strengths but it was not the god of cruiser pvp people are making it out to be, and there is at least one ship that is better in every way which should have been due for a nerf long before the Caracal was considered if these things were done fairly.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2169 - 2013-11-26 09:41:38 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


You need to consider everything when considering ship balance. An old style RLML Caracal had the ability to fit a standard cruiser tank. Deal decent DPS with excellent damage projection and excellent damage application with only "soft tackle" (disruptor only).

Yes. These theoretical Gallente gank cruisers look really amazeballs on paper and they probably can steam roller other ships of their class as long as they start the fight on their terms but they also have their weaknesses that are easily exploitable.

Yes. The new RLML's can be frustrating but also very powerful. The main problem that I see people having with them is that active tanked/heavily tanked, AB'ing frigates are difficult to kill without full tackle. This setup is the hard counter to this weapon system though so you need to find a way to beat them and deal with it.

The magazine size, ROFand reload time have been carefully selected so that your damage per minute isn't bonkers and also gives frigate users a bit of a chance to not just get curb stomped. This also balances the weapon vs cruisers.

The only issue this weapon has right now is the ammo switching problem which is being worked on.In the meantime, try to find the best use of these weapons for you without relying on cookie cutter fits of old.


There's nothing theoretical about them, they're all over low sec both solo and in fleets. They can comfortably fit 2 webs and a scram while doing the dps I was takling about. Yes you can do omg amazing dps, or have rofltank but I didn't quote those stats in any of my posts and I didn't see anyone else do that either, we were talking about realistic solo pvp fits. Fact is Vexor will melt the Caracal in a close range fight even if it's not blaster fit, and the same vexor should be able to stand it's ground against a RLML Caracal in a long range fight too, definitely now RLML has been handicapped, only thing saving the Caracal in a long range fight is the ability to over heat MWD and GTFO. The point of my posts on this was to show that the Caracal had it's strengths but it was not the god of cruiser pvp people are making it out to be, and there is at least one ship that is better in every way which should have been due for a nerf long before the Caracal was considered if these things were done fairly.


You can "defang" a vexor very quickly and easily with RLML's. Remove their DPS, Soften them up and then move in for the kill. Takes time but that's your best option. Yes his reinforcements would be on the way but they always are going to be. Just gotta accept that you can't win them all but being able to engage at long range means you can GTFO when you have to. Being able to survive and fight again like that is very useful. Being a blaster pilot and having to fully commit to fights is a massive wealness.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2170 - 2013-11-26 09:53:35 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:


You need to consider everything when considering ship balance. An old style RLML Caracal had the ability to fit a standard cruiser tank. Deal decent DPS with excellent damage projection and excellent damage application with only "soft tackle" (disruptor only).

Yes. These theoretical Gallente gank cruisers look really amazeballs on paper and they probably can steam roller other ships of their class as long as they start the fight on their terms but they also have their weaknesses that are easily exploitable.

Yes. The new RLML's can be frustrating but also very powerful. The main problem that I see people having with them is that active tanked/heavily tanked, AB'ing frigates are difficult to kill without full tackle. This setup is the hard counter to this weapon system though so you need to find a way to beat them and deal with it.

The magazine size, ROFand reload time have been carefully selected so that your damage per minute isn't bonkers and also gives frigate users a bit of a chance to not just get curb stomped. This also balances the weapon vs cruisers.

The only issue this weapon has right now is the ammo switching problem which is being worked on.In the meantime, try to find the best use of these weapons for you without relying on cookie cutter fits of old.


There's nothing theoretical about them, they're all over low sec both solo and in fleets. They can comfortably fit 2 webs and a scram while doing the dps I was takling about. Yes you can do omg amazing dps, or have rofltank but I didn't quote those stats in any of my posts and I didn't see anyone else do that either, we were talking about realistic solo pvp fits. Fact is Vexor will melt the Caracal in a close range fight even if it's not blaster fit, and the same vexor should be able to stand it's ground against a RLML Caracal in a long range fight too, definitely now RLML has been handicapped, only thing saving the Caracal in a long range fight is the ability to over heat MWD and GTFO. The point of my posts on this was to show that the Caracal had it's strengths but it was not the god of cruiser pvp people are making it out to be, and there is at least one ship that is better in every way which should have been due for a nerf long before the Caracal was considered if these things were done fairly.


You can "defang" a vexor very quickly and easily with RLML's. Remove their DPS, Soften them up and then move in for the kill. Takes time but that's your best option. Yes his reinforcements would be on the way but they always are going to be. Just gotta accept that you can't win them all but being able to engage at long range means you can GTFO when you have to. Being able to survive and fight again like that is very useful. Being a blaster pilot and having to fully commit to fights is a massive wealness.


4 full flights of buffed drones is not easy nor quick to dispatch, and as I said while your dps is shooting his drones he is shooting you. If you do the maths on it you'll see that all those drones would have about 20k EHP, add that to the Vexor itself and the fact he is doing more dps for most of the time and your not going to be in good shape when it comes to move in for the kill time, if you even get that far. Also don't discredit the 5 Turrets he has doing steady dps either.

Either way, Vexor Thorax Maller etc are all superior brawlers because that's what they do, the Caracal stronger when it can stay at range, that was working fine, I have yet to see a single person explain how the RLML Caracal was OP compared to other races cruisers. All I have seen are people saying it was superior to HML Caracal, which sets a dangerous precedent for the Caldari line up if all of our weapons need to be as broken as heavy missiles or they'll be considered OP.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2171 - 2013-11-26 09:59:29 UTC
I have no use for this weapon, I really don't give a toss about nulsec fleets or whatever peculiar niche it might be slightly better at. I have 6million skill points total and the Caracal was one of the only ships I could use, this is what people don't seem to understand... people like me are left with no option than to be forced out of our chosen race of ships. So far it's happened at frigate level and destroyer level and now cruiser level i may as well just give up on Caldari but I'd rather I didn't have to.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2172 - 2013-11-26 10:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Fourteen Maken wrote:
There's nothing theoretical about them, they're all over low sec both solo and in fleets. They can comfortably fit 2 webs and a scram while doing the dps I was takling about. Yes you can do omg amazing dps, or have rofltank but I didn't quote those stats in any of my posts and I didn't see anyone else do that either, we were talking about realistic solo pvp fits. Fact is Vexor will melt the Caracal in a close range fight even if it's not blaster fit, and the same vexor should be able to stand it's ground against a RLML Caracal in a long range fight too, definitely now RLML has been handicapped, only thing saving the Caracal in a long range fight is the ability to over heat MWD and GTFO. The point of my posts on this was to show that the Caracal had it's strengths but it was not the god of cruiser pvp people are making it out to be, and there is at least one ship that is better in every way which should have been due for a nerf long before the Caracal was considered if these things were done fairly.
What are you smoking to write such a nonsense ?!

Your gank fits are nothing but purely theoretical fits and certainly don't roam lowsec, or at least FW lowsec, because two frigates would eat them ! Even the new RLML would melt them in one load ! And you certainly never used blasters nor drones if you believe you will ever apply all the paper dps you mentioned.

Dps is not everything, and the comedy Thorax and Vexor fit showed have just that : dps ; and any Condor roaming around will kill them. Hell even a duel Incursus might be able to kill those cruisers !

And if you are only saying that a long range weapon is not well suited for brawling, well, congratulation, you just learn your first pvp lesson...

Now I never said RLML was OP against cruisers, I said that they were obsoleting all other medium missiles because of their versatility : they had a good applyed dps over range for a cruiser weapon and an insane ability to melt frigates. This completely obsolete both HML and Destroyers, and hjave none of the drawbacks of these two things : HM are bad against smaller targets and destroyers are slower and have a third of the ehp of a Caracal, which make them not immune to frigates.

And that is the reason people here are crying about the old RLML : this weapon just melted frigates, which make it ideal to play around in the middle of a blob, kill all frigates tackling you, and even kill the bad cruisers you manage to fool, with a forgiving tank on top of that ! But by making the cruiser immune to frigates (tank + damage application) RLML were completely OP.

Consider the whole picture when you make a comparison, and don't only look at the drawbacks of your beloved weapons and the strengths of the others. That's only what I'm doing here : showing you the qualities of caldari ships. And consider too that fights are not always 1v1. When numbers arise, damage projection and tank become more and more important that dps and brawling ability.

Fourteen Maken wrote:
I have no use for this weapon, I really don't give a toss about nulsec fleets or whatever peculiar niche it might be slightly better at. I have 6million skill points total and the Caracal was one of the only ships I could use, this is what people don't seem to understand... people like me are left with no option than to be forced out of our chosen race of ships. So far it's happened at frigate level and destroyer level and now cruiser level i may as well just give up on Caldari but I'd rather I didn't have to.
You have caldari ships and missiles skills, and it just happen that frigates like the Hookbill or the Hawk are the best for almost anything in frigate warfare. Ask what you want to do with a frigate, and the Hookbill will be among the best for the job. And other caldari frigates fare very well too.

And if you are looking for a brawling caldari cruiser, the Moa await you : blasters and huge tank.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2173 - 2013-11-26 10:39:15 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
]You have caldari ships and missiles skills, and it just happen that frigates like the Hookbill or the Hawk are the best for almost anything in frigate warfare. Ask what you want to do with a frigate, and the Hookbill will be among the best for the job. And other caldari frigates fare very well too.

And if you are looking for a brawling caldari cruiser, the Moa await you : blasters and huge tank.


Yes I like the Caldari frigates, having seen videos of other people using them, but they are not noob friendly and I can't even fit a hookbill withot perfect fitting skills, so I will come back to Caldari frigates when I'm a bit better at pvp, but for now I'm using Gallente and Amarr.

Also there are vexor fleets, in low sec and solo Vexors too... every day I come across them and have to turn around and go the other way. You might not notice them because they are mostly blue to you, but lol they are out there trust me, Caracals too but I see a lot more Vexors than i've seen Caracals or any other t1 cruiser. There was a fleet of Vexors and Thoraxes defending plexes in Aldranette the last fleet I was in, you know it makes sense putting them on the warp in to melt anything that comes through. As for my gank fits, I was referencing a fit with 2 drone damage amplifiers and a dmg rig, hardly gank fits with 25k ehp and 3 tackle mods on.

[Vexor, **** fit vexor]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

200mm Railgun II, Spike M
200mm Railgun II, Spike M
200mm Railgun II, Spike M
200mm Railgun II, Spike M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Warrior II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


That's just what I made, and I'm not good at fitting but it can do all the things I said it could do and in fleets they are even worse to go up against when the whole screen goes red with a blob of drones. light Drones are good against any frigate except the very fastest, and if hobgoblins are not working there are not many that could speed tank warrirors for long.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2174 - 2013-11-26 11:02:11 UTC
blaster moa? is dis guy srs? moa is terrible and always has been
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2175 - 2013-11-26 11:05:46 UTC
Confirming I just sold my T2 RLMLs and replaced them with T2 LMLs. They fire 2s slower and cost 4x more but I'm looking forward to the improved performance just the same.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2176 - 2013-11-26 11:18:06 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Confirming I just sold my T2 RLMLs and replaced them with T2 LMLs. They fire 2s slower and cost 4x more but I'm looking forward to the improved performance just the same.

In b4 LML nerf Ugh
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2177 - 2013-11-26 11:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I say put the reload on RLMLs and RHMLs back to 10 seconds and leave the other stats. The ammunition capacity was already nerfed by 77.75%, the power grid requirements nearly doubled and most of the hulls don't bonus RLMLs or RHMLs anyway. Let the games begin!


For a triple BCS Caracal with CN ammo, this would result in burst DPS remaining the same at 335 DPS, but sustained DPS increasing from 176 DPS to 273 DPS. For comparison, old RLML Caracal had sustained DPS of 218.

Your idea involves a 25% increase in RLML Caracal sustained DPS, relative to the old RLMLs. Straight

Why did you propose this?

Luscius Uta wrote:
Their ammo capacity should be at around 3x the current size (and that's still only about 60% of their pre-Rubicon capacity) to fix this problem.


This idea results in sustained DPS of 258, an 18% increase on old RLML Caracal.

These ideas are absurd.

Instead, what if the reload time was cut to 30 s? This would retain the burst DPS and give sustained DPS of 200. That's an 8% cut from old RLML Caracal. If it was 35 s, then it'd be 187 DPS and 14%.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2178 - 2013-11-26 11:57:00 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I say put the reload on RLMLs and RHMLs back to 10 seconds and leave the other stats. The ammunition capacity was already nerfed by 77.75%, the power grid requirements nearly doubled and most of the hulls don't bonus RLMLs or RHMLs anyway. Let the games begin!


For a triple BCS Caracal with CN ammo, this would result in burst DPS remaining the same at 335 DPS, but sustained DPS increasing from 176 DPS to 273 DPS. For comparison, old RLML Caracal had sustained DPS of 218.

Your idea involves a 25% increase in RLML Caracal sustained DPS, relative to the old RLMLs. Straight

Why did you propose this?


It should be pretty obvious that was said tongue in cheek, so the real question is why did you bother working all that out?

Besides the dps is not the problem, it's the tactic they are used in that made people think they were op... ie screening fleets from frigates changing dps will not have much effect on that, the condor is good at what it does and it has nothing to do with it's dps. As far as I'm aware they are still meant to be able to screen fleets against frigs, but now they are useless for everything else which is why people who want to use them outside of big fleets are not happy.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2179 - 2013-11-26 12:13:44 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I say put the reload on RLMLs and RHMLs back to 10 seconds and leave the other stats. The ammunition capacity was already nerfed by 77.75%, the power grid requirements nearly doubled and most of the hulls don't bonus RLMLs or RHMLs anyway. Let the games begin!


For a triple BCS Caracal with CN ammo, this would result in burst DPS remaining the same at 335 DPS, but sustained DPS increasing from 176 DPS to 273 DPS. For comparison, old RLML Caracal had sustained DPS of 218.

Your idea involves a 25% increase in RLML Caracal sustained DPS, relative to the old RLMLs. Straight

Why did you propose this?


It should be pretty obvious that was said tongue in cheek, so the real question is why did you bother working all that out?


It wasn't clear that it was tongue in cheek to me. It looked like just another case of people proposing ideas without having thought about the consequences. The idea of tripling capacity seemed to be serious also, but was just as absurd.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2180 - 2013-11-26 12:33:28 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Now I never said RLML was OP against cruisers, I said that they were obsoleting all other medium missiles because of their versatility


That's because other medium missiles have issues since HML were spanked and HAMs are well, HAMs.


Bouh Revetoile wrote:
This completely obsolete both HML and Destroyers, and hjave none of the drawbacks of these two things : HM are bad against smaller targets and destroyers are slower and have a third of the ehp of a Caracal, which make them not immune to frigates.


This is where you are mistaken - HML being crap, are why HML are obsolete. HML are just bad in general. Furthermore those caracals that are "immune" to frigates are eaten alive by other cruisers with cruiser weapons. It's a fair trade, one of the key points of eve is a trade off. That trade off was broken when HML were left in the dirt - there's just no point in using them next to the alternates at this stage and that has nothing to do with the relative power of RLML and everything to do with HML sucking.