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RIP Fun PVE Vargur
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Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-11-22 21:21:54 UTC
The Vargur is a BEAST after the changes YMMV.Roll
Sigras
Conglomo
#102 - 2013-11-23 01:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:

at 50km (the farthest you should ever be from your target with the new MJD bonus), the vargur does 588 DPS; the only cruiser that can beat that is an ishtar and im not even sure that counts because of all the aggro sentry drones take now a days. And even then, the vargur does way more damage inside 30km, and it has fully selectable damage types; the sentry ishtar loses damage if it switches from thermal

again, morons . . . Post first think never


Wow - like the name calling dont you. To present a rational argument you must be civil - or are you hiding behind the truth.

You want a 588 dps battleship for 1b. You want it to be slow and overtanked. You cant manage drone aggro. Selectable damage types? Give me the kinetic one and watch that DPS drop. Oh yeah - your a clueless prick , and aplogies to everyone else for the downgrade.

Here's a hint, when insulting someone in text format, make sure that you have your grammar correct in the insult . . . oh wait you're the clueless prick

Additionally the damage selection is SO much better on the paladin and Kronos, I guess I should have thought of that Roll

Quish McQuiddy wrote:
The ishtar is a good example of where BS in general are broken. It can field effective frigate defense and BS defense and everything in between.

yeah because it does kinetic damage SO much better than the vargur.

Quish McQuiddy wrote:
If you can show me a perfect mission where you can MJD everywhere to 50 and you are happy with 588 dps, where all the rats happily spawn at that magnificent range then sit still for you. You spend more time killing them and twiddling. Go on admit it. You like to still in missions and do nothing, you used to afk with a domi before drone aggro, you used to field an expensive tank on everything as gank never came into it. You flew a raven. PVP is just scary to you? What a wanker.

If you can show me a ship that does angel cartel missions more effectively than mine does then I'd be happy to see it.

588 DPS is the worst case scenario, and if you're not creative enough to see how you can use a MJD to keep rats @ < 50km then you're beyond help.

go ahead show me a ship that can do better; the closest you can come to doing consistently more damage with damage selection is the golem, but even then you have the defender missile problem and the missile travel time issue.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#103 - 2013-11-23 02:34:05 UTC
I wish I had Min BS to L5, I only have Gal and Caldari to L5. The Vargur just looks so damn amazing and how it does it's bastion is cool as hell too.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2013-11-23 02:51:24 UTC
Sigras wrote:

... stuff ...

Here's a hint, when insulting someone in text format, make sure that you have your grammar correct in the insult . . . oh wait you're the clueless prick

Whoa. You really didn't like that did you bubble. Did mummy hold that biddy widdy hand while you typed? Did you spit out your dummy there? Does baby need some bitty?

You sure are struggling when you have to pick up on spelling.

Sigras wrote:

... more stuff ... Ishtar ...

yeah because [the Ishtar] does kinetic damage SO much better than the vargur.

Lets see 90k, Wardens ... yup.

Sigras wrote:

If you can show me a ship that does angel cartel missions more effectively than mine does then I'd be happy to see it.
588 DPS is the worst case scenario, and if you're not creative enough to see how you can use a MJD to keep rats @ < 50km then you're beyond help.

Lol - what a sorry excuse for an expert you are. You use autocannon and keep everything at 50k range? How do you do that in all missions. In all those other missions you make the rats spawn magically just where you want them and sit perfectly still - to get an amazing 580 dps. You have a magical WoW map? You have to use angel missions where they close on you as a reason to illustrate the Vargurs abilities - hell yeah - NOBODY KNEW THAT! You are - as previously noted - clueless and a prick.

Sigras wrote:

go ahead show me a ship that can do better; the closest you can come to doing consistently more damage with damage selection is the golem, but even then you have the defender missile problem and the missile travel time issue.

Golem, range and damage selection.
Paladin, range and dps - not greatest for Angel, but nobody gets only angel missions. Unless they have a that amazing WoW magical spawn key on your keyboard.
Kronos does fine in Angel missions.

The key thing here, Siggy baby, is, well. You just come across as a total knobend. Would love to see your PVP record - it must be hilarious.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#105 - 2013-11-23 02:55:08 UTC
I need a Vargur fit about to hit 100km and closer without moving and do aroud 1000DPS, is that possible? I like to mission lazy, I'll be honest.
Sigras
Conglomo
#106 - 2013-11-23 09:26:45 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:

... stuff ...

... more stuff ... Ishtar ...

awww . . . its so cute when you ignore valid points that you dont have an argument for and hope we dont notice . . .

Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
yeah because [the Ishtar] does kinetic damage SO much better than the vargur.

Lets see 90k, Wardens ... yup.

lets see . . . 563 dps max yup totally nailed it against the mystical magical rats that only have a weakness to kinetic and not anything else . . . its not like phased plasma works against the guristas or anything . . . Roll
Sigras
Conglomo
#107 - 2013-11-23 09:51:47 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
If you can show me a ship that does angel cartel missions more effectively than mine does then I'd be happy to see it.
588 DPS is the worst case scenario, and if you're not creative enough to see how you can use a MJD to keep rats @ < 50km then you're beyond help.

Lol - what a sorry excuse for an expert you are. You use autocannon and keep everything at 50k range? How do you do that in all missions. In all those other missions you make the rats spawn magically just where you want them and sit perfectly still - to get an amazing 580 dps. You have a magical WoW map? You have to use angel missions where they close on you as a reason to illustrate the Vargurs abilities - hell yeah - NOBODY KNEW THAT! You are - as previously noted - clueless and a prick.

since you're obviously not creative enough to come up with this on your own, ill just tell you. . . you use the MJD (you know the module that the ship is bonused for) to control range.

Have you ever noticed how the rats seem to spawn in groups around the same area? I know its hard but if you think about it really hard, you can figure out that if you MJD into that area the rats will spawn right on top of you. Even if the rats are only 70km away from you, if you activate your MJD and use a little first grade math you know that you'll end up 30 km behind them. See how 50km is a worst case scenario?

Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
go ahead show me a ship that can do better; the closest you can come to doing consistently more damage with damage selection is the golem, but even then you have the defender missile problem and the missile travel time issue.

Golem, range and damage selection.
Paladin, range and dps - not greatest for Angel, but nobody gets only angel missions. Unless they have a that amazing WoW magical spawn key on your keyboard.
Kronos does fine in Angel missions.

The key thing here, Siggy baby, is, well. You just come across as a total knobend. Would love to see your PVP record - it must be hilarious.

Golem loses a TON of damage to defender missiles
Paladin great against the sansha, drones and blood raiders, ok against the serpentis, terrible against the guristas and Angel Cartel . . . that point is totally valid and I dont really have a problem with that because depending on the mission its either better or worse
Kronos The Kronos does the same damage at basically the same range as the vargur except without damage selection . . . the only time its better is inside 17km . . . yeah sure it does ok, but you'd be hard pressed to show that this in any way makes the vargur obsolete.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#108 - 2013-11-23 10:41:45 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Sigras wrote:

Kronos The Kronos does the same damage at basically the same range as the vargur except without damage selection . . . the only time its better is inside 17km . . . yeah sure it does ok, but you'd be hard pressed to show that this in any way makes the vargur obsolete.


Im not showing this at all. Assuming a 2 slot tank on both (3 if you count bastion), each have access to the same number of mids and lows:
I am using this template for dmg for both in my comparison
faction wep upgrade x4
TE II

faction TC x2

800mm IIs vs Neutron IIs
ambit I
burst II

in terms of raw dps:
null > RF phased til about 56.1km( about 65km with bastion)
hail > null til about 20km (about 21km with bastion)

navy antimatter > rf phased til about 28.6km ( about 30.8km with bastion)
navy antimatter > hail til about 27.4km (about 30km with bastion)

void > hail til about 20km (about 22.3km with bastion)

Outside bastion there is no ammo the vargur can use to outperform a kronos in raw dps out to 56.1km (65km with bastion).
Kronos can actually receive a benefit from the bastion modules optimal bonus with certain ammo and gets a better drone bay.

but hey the vargur gets better speed right?.... which goes great with bastion...Roll
mama guru
Yazatas.
#109 - 2013-11-23 18:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Sigras
Conglomo
#110 - 2013-11-24 01:06:54 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Sigras wrote:

Kronos The Kronos does the same damage at basically the same range as the vargur except without damage selection . . . the only time its better is inside 17km . . . yeah sure it does ok, but you'd be hard pressed to show that this in any way makes the vargur obsolete.


Im not showing this at all. Assuming a 2 slot tank on both (3 if you count bastion), each have access to the same number of mids and lows:
I am using this template for dmg for both in my comparison
faction wep upgrade x4
TE II

faction TC x2

800mm IIs vs Neutron IIs
ambit I
burst II

in terms of raw dps:
null > RF phased til about 56.1km( about 65km with bastion)
hail > null til about 20km (about 21km with bastion)

navy antimatter > rf phased til about 28.6km ( about 30.8km with bastion)
navy antimatter > hail til about 27.4km (about 30km with bastion)

void > hail til about 20km (about 22.3km with bastion)

Outside bastion there is no ammo the vargur can use to outperform a kronos in raw dps out to 56.1km (65km with bastion).
Kronos can actually receive a benefit from the bastion modules optimal bonus with certain ammo and gets a better drone bay.

but hey the vargur gets better speed right?.... which goes great with bastion...Roll

I would say that at all ranges above 26km the vargur and kronos are a wash, or the vargur may actually be a bit better . . . They have basically the same DPS (within 5% of each other, null vs RF ammo) but RF ammo is damage selectable.

That being said, you do have a point; perhaps the falloff bonus should be an optimal bonus for the kronos.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2013-11-24 06:49:52 UTC
i did angel extravaga l4 in vargur under 30mins before the patch. I did it again after still under 30mins. it works the same as before, i dont konw hy you have to put a jump drive in it . There are only 1 or 2 mission where jump drive might be suitable. bastion module allot me to use one less mid so i got an extra tracking computer.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#112 - 2013-11-24 14:05:37 UTC
mama guru wrote:
RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

Fits used in comparison needed. ill maintain that kronos ammo is better than vargur out to about 56.1km (or 65km in bastion) and that was before implants.....

mama guru wrote:

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range

Outtracking an the benefit of out tracking are 2 different things. This is PvE we are talking about about, where the rats that otherwise might require tracking are usually approaching you. The further out a target is the less tracking you need, and you can switch ammo in 5 seconds or use mobility to reduce angular to make up for a tracking need.

mama guru wrote:

...and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting.

Cant tell if trolling....
Barrage DPS is terrible. If a target is out 60-100km, just mjd in your kronos and you will have the upper hand. You are in a marauder after all.

mama guru wrote:

This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

Granted I'd like to be in a vargur over a kronos in minmatar or amarr space, but what most ppl dont take into consideration is that minmatar have terrible access to kinetic dmg. For example, RF phased is about 16.67% kinetic dmg and the remainder is thermal. As far as I know, there isnt a faction that is primarily weak against thermal, thermal is usually secondary. Between null, antimatter, and void, null has the lowest contribution to kinetic dmg.... at ~45.5%
factions weak against kin/therm:
Concord
EoM
Guristas
Mercenaries
Serpentis
Caldari
Gallente

So not only is your raw dps going to be higher... you're also doing better against the resists of roughly half the factions in the game
mama guru
Yazatas.
#113 - 2013-11-24 14:47:39 UTC
Price has gone up like 10% in 3 days. Yeah it's the worst marauder ever.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#114 - 2013-11-24 17:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Layla Firoue
mama guru wrote:
RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform.


Assuming similar fittings ( 4xgyro/mag stab, burst aerator II, 1 TE 2 TC/ 3 TC ) your first statement is utterly false.

Assuming similar fittings as stated above your second statement is false as well its more like 31km at which the Kronos swaps to NULL and out dps the Vargur again out to 60 km which is when the Vargur finally gets the advantage.

Assuming a Blaster Kronos vs AC Vargur scenario.

However the Vargur can play turret mode and with a quick swap to Barrage can even hose down targets up to 100km with good tracking and selectable damage types and ok dps, (being able to choose damage types offsets the perceived lack of paper dps quite a bit) something a blaster Kronos can not so I would not consider it rubbish at all, so at least your final statement is correct.

The only out of whack Marauder is the Paladin which is over performing quite obviously both with Mega Pulse and especially with Tachys but this goes well in line with CCPs modus operandi to always make something FOTM with every change until it gets nerfed.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#115 - 2013-11-25 13:16:39 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
mama guru wrote:
Price has gone up like 10% in 3 days. Yeah it's the worst marauder ever.

Lawl, are you really trying to say in a non-comparative sense that an upward trend over the course of 3 days increasing the cost of an item by 10% within a week of a major expansion / change to said item is an indicator of the quality of any item?

With this logic, the price of the bastion module itself has dipped over 10% in the past 3 days..... so therefore it is bad?

There are several factors that go into the changes in prices of items on the market outside of the quality of the ship, such as material cost / scarcity, which can change based on the consumption of x material in the production of another ship that uses the same mat.

Other factors can include the population of producers able to build the ship, the market size of consumers, the alternatives available to those consumers, hype after an expansion, profitability per time of producing x ship instead of y ship, etc.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#116 - 2013-11-25 15:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Layla Firoue wrote:
mama guru wrote:
RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform.


Assuming similar fittings ( 4xgyro/mag stab, burst aerator II, 1 TE 2 TC/ 3 TC ) your first statement is utterly false.

Assuming similar fittings as stated above your second statement is false as well its more like 31km at which the Kronos swaps to NULL and out dps the Vargur again out to 60 km which is when the Vargur finally gets the advantage.

Assuming a Blaster Kronos vs AC Vargur scenario.

However the Vargur can play turret mode and with a quick swap to Barrage can even hose down targets up to 100km with good tracking and selectable damage types and ok dps, (being able to choose damage types offsets the perceived lack of paper dps quite a bit) something a blaster Kronos can not so I would not consider it rubbish at all, so at least your final statement is correct.

The only out of whack Marauder is the Paladin which is over performing quite obviously both with Mega Pulse and especially with Tachys but this goes well in line with CCPs modus operandi to always make something FOTM with every change until it gets nerfed.



Check the EFT DPS graph, and I was comparing my own fits which is 2TC / 3 Magstab for the Kronos and a Burst II, although that might be overtanked.


Neutrons with Null at 50% Falloff: 19+20.5= 39.5km

800mm AC's with RF Phased at 50% falloff: 4.7 + 35.5= 41.2km,

The RAW DPS difference is marginal but they both hit optimal +50% falloff at about 35-40km on average and after that the vargur has 35km falloff to go compared to the 20km of the kronos. At that point the Vargur WILL out DPS null. Period.


For anything inside that range the kronos is superior in terms of raw dps though.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#117 - 2013-11-25 17:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
mama guru wrote:
Layla Firoue wrote:
mama guru wrote:
RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform.


Assuming similar fittings ( 4xgyro/mag stab, burst aerator II, 1 TE 2 TC/ 3 TC ) your first statement is utterly false.

Assuming similar fittings as stated above your second statement is false as well its more like 31km at which the Kronos swaps to NULL and out dps the Vargur again out to 60 km which is when the Vargur finally gets the advantage.

Assuming a Blaster Kronos vs AC Vargur scenario.

However the Vargur can play turret mode and with a quick swap to Barrage can even hose down targets up to 100km with good tracking and selectable damage types and ok dps, (being able to choose damage types offsets the perceived lack of paper dps quite a bit) something a blaster Kronos can not so I would not consider it rubbish at all, so at least your final statement is correct.

The only out of whack Marauder is the Paladin which is over performing quite obviously both with Mega Pulse and especially with Tachys but this goes well in line with CCPs modus operandi to always make something FOTM with every change until it gets nerfed.



Check the EFT DPS graph, and I was comparing my own fits which is 2TC / 3 Magstab for the Kronos and a Burst II, although that might be overtanked.


Neutrons with Null at 50% Falloff: 19+20.5= 39.5km

800mm AC's with RF Phased at 50% falloff: 4.7 + 35.5= 41.2km,

The RAW DPS difference is marginal but they both hit optimal +50% falloff at about 35-40km on average and after that the vargur has 35km falloff to go compared to the 20km of the kronos. At that point the Vargur WILL out DPS null. Period.


For anything inside that range the kronos is superior in terms of raw dps though.


you're overtanked. you really only need a 2 slot shield or armor tank if you are using bastion. well, i guess technically 3 if you include bastion in the count

check:
3 faction mags/ gyros
1 mag II / gyro II
1 TE

2 faction TC w/optimal

burst II
ambit I

w/ bastion active: null > rf phased til around 65KM
bastion inactive: null > rf phased til around 56KM


also, the dmg difference is pretty significant
approx 6.5% better @ 20KM and 40KM
approx 8-9% better @ 25KM and 35KM
approx 9-10% better @ 30KM ish
+kronos gets decent kinetic dmg

For perspective:
ppl use 5% dmg implants all the time.
machariel's base turret dps lead over the vargur is ~9.5%
Vindi's base turret dps lead over the kronos is ~10%
Seriously Bored
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-11-25 18:16:18 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

For perspective:
ppl use 5% dmg implants all the time.
machariel's base turret dps lead over the vargur is ~9.5%
Vindi's base turret dps lead over the kronos is ~10%


Great post overall, but I wanted to comment on one point:

While Vindi to Kronos's gun performance can be directly compared, the Vargur gets up to a 37.5% (non-stacking penalized) tracking bonus over the Mach that is routinely underestimated.

There are many common situations where a Vargur can outshoot a Mach because of it. (There is no such thing as "having enough tracking" against targets with non-zero transversal.)
mama guru
Yazatas.
#119 - 2013-11-25 19:02:52 UTC
I'm not gonna blow 1b on fittings though. I don't mission nearly enough to make that back in a reasonable timeframe. Im thinking like 200-300m tops. Faction damage mods and fed navy TC's cost a fortune nowadays. The Two cheapass setups I had in mind meet eachother in DPS at about 37.5-40km at which point the vargur gets an advantage anyway.


But seriously:


19+43 vs 4.7+72 Is no debate at all. The Vargur will out dps the Kronos at 40-50km range and onwards plain and simple and this is not factoring in the higher tracking of RF PP.

Besides, I still prefer the Kronos for looks alone.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#120 - 2013-11-25 19:32:45 UTC
mama guru wrote:
I'm not gonna blow 1b on fittings though. I don't mission nearly enough to make that back in a reasonable timeframe. Im thinking like 200-300m tops. Faction damage mods and fed navy TC's cost a fortune nowadays. The Two cheapass setups I had in mind meet eachother in DPS at about 37.5-40km at which point the vargur gets an advantage anyway.


But seriously:


19+43 vs 4.7+72 Is no debate at all. The Vargur will out dps the Kronos at 40-50km range and onwards plain and simple and this is not factoring in the higher tracking of RF PP.

Besides, I still prefer the Kronos for looks alone.


Really if you use all tech II 4x mag stab/gyro burst aerator II, 3 TC / 1 TE.2 TC and add both ships to the eft dps graph as attackers and chose a BS sized target like a Raven with RF Phased Plasma the Vargur only gets a advantage at 70km
in fact its even more useful to switch to Barrage which starts to outperform RF PP and at 55km onward holds an advantage over the Null Kronos.

Add a cruiser sized target like a thorax and the tracking advantage is noticeable but not overwhelming.

With ACs and barrage you can hit up to 110km with ok damage making it less often necessary to move like the blaster Kronos the only thing what makes the Vargur subpar compared to the others is its performance with artillery.