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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2121 - 2013-11-25 12:25:33 UTC
Moonaura wrote:


First off, you previously said the Drake wasn't nerfed. Hell yeah it was. It might have the same fitting options, but its base shield HP was nerfed by 10%, which when you consider the improvements skills bring, means an overall bigger HP nerf. Both its armor and hull also got nerfed by more than 15%. Its capacitor was nerfed by more than 10%.


It also had its non-kinetic dps cut even more.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2122 - 2013-11-25 13:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Moonaura wrote:
First off, you previously said the Drake wasn't nerfed.
I never said that.

Quote:
Try turning the MWD off and watch what happens to those lovely numbers compared to gunnery. You know, when those blasters and warp scram have you trapped and the Thorax has double propulsion modules, web, double tank and cap booster.

Against normal signature ships, with either no MWD on (Most folks don't have the cap to leave them just idly running), or an afterburner - then heavy and heavy assaults hit incredibly poorly. The only way to realistically get close to their potential DPS is to include a dedicated target painting ship in the gang and webs. Given the lack of mid slots after a tank, that isn't always doable on many Caldari ships - Caracal included. There is a reason people stopped using these ships and fits.
And that is flatout wrong.

A ship not MWDing will almost always take more damage from missiles than when MWD is on. That is because the speed given by MWD is increased by a skill, so even if the ship doesn't get full speed because of mass, it gets enough of it to increase its speed/sig ratio and hence reduce missiles damage. The only exceptions are 1600mm plate + 3 buffer armor rig ships, but they are so slow in the first place they won't avoid much missile damage without MWDing.

Run the figures. The only ship which avoid some HAM dps are the fastest cruisers, and those with MWD sig bonus, and linked ship.

Of course AB reduce missile damage, because speed and signature are the only things affecting missiles.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#2123 - 2013-11-25 13:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
You missed a lot. I'm not aware of any drake nerf. I like the new drake and would fly it any day. They didn't nerf the drake, they buffed things that aren't drakes. There's a difference.


You are right, it was Reaver. My apologies, however your sentiments about the Caracal and missiles in general are misplaced.

A solo Caracal is rarely able to take down entire fleets of frigates. Unless they are stupid, but I've done the same with a Destroyer, but it was because how they played that meant I killed them.

A solo caracal can't break many T1 Frigates tanks, let alone a fleet of them, and kiting ships can burn away from range. Fitting a Caracal is always one of compromise. Fit a sensor booster, loose a web, fit a scram, only catch stuff close in, fit a disruptor, stuff can burn away, fit a MWD, run out of cap etc etc.

And in addition, roaming around places like Black Rise, you are incredibly vulnerable to ganks and camps, where a frigate or destroyer could escape. Overall, they balance out. I never went around owning everyone in my caracal, it was always just a fun option, that had drawbacks and advantages, just like any other ship.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2124 - 2013-11-25 13:36:07 UTC
And the thing you need to understand is that a Caracal with web+scram have the same tank than all attack cruisers with comparable speed.

36kehp for a T1 attack cruiser with 1800m/s is insane. Only combat cruiser get that, and their speed is more in the 1000-1400m/s range.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2125 - 2013-11-25 13:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Lara Feng wrote:
Without altering its current capabilities? The Caracal became basically useless. New fitting requirements gimp your fittings. HML are not an option. HAMs can be an option as damage support on targets with a greater signature than a Red Supergiant, but there are always more viable options.
All it is good for now is to gank SINGLE T1 frigs while avoiding any form of a real engagement whatsoever.
This is a completely uninformed comment. HAM Caracal have the same ehp as any attack cruiser, and that is with web+scram, and about the same speed. HAM Caracal hit farther than any other close range attack cruiser but the Omen, and for more damage than most of them from 10km and beyond. And finaly, HAM Caracal, without any tackle, will apply more than 80% of its dps to a MWDing armor Thorax, 90% when shielded. No combat cruiser will tank more than 10% of HAM dps.

HAM have been buffed when HML have been nerfed. They are perfectly fine now.



You continue withs these falacies?

Check how much damage it applies to a Vagabond or to an AB Deimos..

or a very common ship.. and AB stabber!!!

And even a MWD sttaber will take under 45% of the damage from a caracal!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2126 - 2013-11-25 13:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You continue withs these falacies?

Check how much damage it applies to a Vagabond or to an AB Deimos etc...
And how many damage turrets apply to a frigate orbiting in close ?

Vagabond is one of the fastest ship in game, and a HAC which mean it have a signature bonus to MWD.

And the AB...

But maybe you expect HAM to do full damage to AB cruisers despite the module being made to tank such damages ?

PS : If you want a weapon system not affected by speed and signatureof the target, get turrets and work your piloting. Otherwise, use what the game provide to counter what the game provide to counter missiles, but stop these stupid pseudo-arguments involving all the ships with an especially good ability to avoid missiles damage.

And please, if you want to cry about links, do it in another thread.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2127 - 2013-11-25 13:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
You continue withs these falacies?

Check how much damage it applies to a Vagabond or to an AB Deimos etc...
And how many damage turrets apply to a frigate orbiting in close ?

Vagabond is one of the fastest ship in game, and a HAC which mean it have a signature bonus to MWD.

And the AB...

But maybe you expect HAM to do full damage to AB cruisers despite the module being made to tank such damages ?



Check then a sttaber with MWD... 55% damage reduction


bellicose.. 40% damage reduction with MWD.

All those are non extreme fits.

When i want to avoid Missile damage I can EASILy reduce it to under 10%

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2128 - 2013-11-25 13:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Check then a sttaber with MWD... 55% damage reduction


bellicose.. 40% damage reduction with MWD.

All those are non extreme fits.

When i want to avoid Missile damage I can EASILy reduce it to under 10%

Those are one of the fastest minmatar ships, you know the ships with the highest speed and the lowest signature.

PS : yes, sig and speed on minmatar ship do matter and compensate for some other stats.
PS2 : and I checked the speeds. I wrote the numbers in this thread for all T1 attack and combat cruisers, so I know what these numbers are.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2129 - 2013-11-25 14:18:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And the thing you need to understand is that a Caracal with web+scram have the same tank than all attack cruisers with comparable speed.

36kehp for a T1 attack cruiser with 1800m/s is insane. Only combat cruiser get that, and their speed is more in the 1000-1400m/s range.


Id like to see this 36k ehp caracal with a scram and web.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2130 - 2013-11-25 14:20:30 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And the thing you need to understand is that a Caracal with web+scram have the same tank than all attack cruisers with comparable speed.

36kehp for a T1 attack cruiser with 1800m/s is insane. Only combat cruiser get that, and their speed is more in the 1000-1400m/s range.


Id like to see this 36k ehp caracal with a scram and web.

36kehp is RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2131 - 2013-11-25 14:47:07 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
And the thing you need to understand is that a Caracal with web+scram have the same tank than all attack cruisers with comparable speed.

36kehp for a T1 attack cruiser with 1800m/s is insane. Only combat cruiser get that, and their speed is more in the 1000-1400m/s range.

Id like to see this 36k ehp caracal with a scram and web.

36kehp is RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only.

Well here is a vid showing what RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only can do. Of course, it would take an eternity to switch to a proper missiles so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9RXc-zkzU
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2132 - 2013-11-25 14:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Well here is a vid showing what RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only can do. Of course, it would take an eternity to switch to a proper missiles so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9RXc-zkzU

I only saw the comments (can't see the video right now) saying that was scourge fury LM vs a Hawk...

There's nothing to add to this honestly, it says everything about your expectations.

PS : BTW it's rather easy to make a video of an AF tackling and murdering a cruiser. In fact, a turret cruiser tackled by an AF barely have any chance to survive.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2133 - 2013-11-25 15:09:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Well here is a vid showing what RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only can do. Of course, it would take an eternity to switch to a proper missiles so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9RXc-zkzU

I only saw the comments (can't see the video right now) saying that was scourge fury LM vs a Hawk...

There's nothing to add to this honestly, it says everything about your expectations.

Hawk was the only one in range at first and do you think he would do much better by shooting Raptor or Maller? 40 seconds reload = Bringing Solo Back!
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2134 - 2013-11-25 15:29:08 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Well here is a vid showing what RLML Caracal with warp disruptor only can do. Of course, it would take an eternity to switch to a proper missiles so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9RXc-zkzU

I only saw the comments (can't see the video right now) saying that was scourge fury LM vs a Hawk...

There's nothing to add to this honestly, it says everything about your expectations.

Hawk was the only one in range at first and do you think he would do much better by shooting Raptor or Maller? 40 seconds reload = Bringing Solo Back!
Why were you loaded with scourge fury here ? And why did you take a RLML Caracal in the first place ?

You know, the right tool for the right job.

And to put the 40s reload in perspective, a 1 AU warp take 30 seconds to a T1 cruiser. Considering align time and lock time, you're done for a reload.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2135 - 2013-11-25 15:42:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
PS : BTW it's rather easy to make a video of an AF tackling and murdering a cruiser. In fact, a turret cruiser tackled by an AF barely have any chance to survive.

Gee, I don't know... I see lots of frigates dying like flies, even inties and assault frigs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-4SJALYGI

I'm sure you could make an even better video with HAM Cerb, proving how wrong we all are - it's rather easy for you Blink
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2136 - 2013-11-25 15:48:24 UTC
You know a video don't prove anything right ?

You know a video don't even suggest anything right ?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2137 - 2013-11-25 15:53:38 UTC
"A turret cruiser that is tackled has no chance to survive"
->Videos are linked where turret cruisers that are tackled shake the tackle and live
"Videos dont prove anything"
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2138 - 2013-11-25 15:54:16 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Hawk was the only one in range at first and do you think he would do much better by shooting Raptor or Maller? 40 seconds reload = Bringing Solo Back!
Why were you loaded with scourge fury here ? And why did you take a RLML Caracal in the first place ?

So when I say he you think I'm referring to myself in 3rd person? Hm... no, that wasn't me. I would never ever EVER take a crappyd light Caracal in a small gang.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2139 - 2013-11-25 16:00:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


And to put the 40s reload in perspective, a 1 AU warp take 30 seconds to a T1 cruiser. Considering align time and lock time, you're done for a reload.


Maybe if you have warp core stabs, but it doesnt take 10s to lock a frigate in a cruiser.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2140 - 2013-11-25 16:18:47 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
"A turret cruiser that is tackled has no chance to survive"
->Videos are linked where turret cruisers that are tackled shake the tackle and live
"Videos dont prove anything"
There are stories of Velator killing Tornado too. That's why a video, and an example in general, don't prove anything : you can show whatever you want in a video, and it's easy to showcase a cruiser killing a complete moron in an AF.

But seriously don't you already know that ? Will I need to take your hand every time like that for you make connections between ideas and stop considering anyone not agreeing with you all for an idiot ?

You also shifted the goalpost quite badly here, as I was talking about how a RLML Caracal was OP compared to any other T1 cruiser and how HAM are fine.