Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i was looking and the weapons them selves vs training in missiles.
torpedos are different from cruise, yet to get to torpedos, you need light missiles and heavy missiles.
thats like me training light auto cannons, heavy auto cannons and then loading tachyons in my training cue.

to me, the missile line should require missile training, the torpedo line should require rockets and hams. we gunners have 6 lines to train. 2 specs in each projectiles, energy, and hybrids while missiles only have to train lights then heavies and can train what ever after that.
guided and dumb fired are 2 different weapon systems and should be trained accordingly. light, heavies and cruise (and their specs) vs rockets, hams and torps (and their specs).

further more...once we train lazor rank 5, we have to choose to spec in close range or long range to use the t2 version. why do missiles NOT have to train both as well?

the way it should be is one trains rockets to 5 then either rage spec OR javelin spec. one shouldnt be able to use either and gain damage bonuses when one isnt trained in the details of how to use "close in missiles" vs "long range missiles (or rockets)". they are different weapons (that share a launcher). one needs training in when to shoot for "best effect".

you guys made stride towards balancing launchers vs gunnery, but lets finish the project, not just enough to appease most folks.

torps need rockets and hams, cruise need lights and heavies.

need to add 3 new skills and change the name of 3 old skills.
rage rocket spec
rage ham spec
rage torpedo spec

precision rocket spec
precision ham spec
precision torpedo spec.

Have you tried training drones yet? Have you seen the mapping for those? Gunnery is fast and straightforward, it only takes longer if you want to train every gun type for every race to rank V specialisation. And don't forget, some gunnery skills are needed to fit missiles better, like advanced weapons upgrades.

screw caldari?
no where does it say screw caldari. one cannot imply that this post is anti-caldari and be accurate when other ships use missiles.
my fav ship is a sac which uses missiles. vengance, retribution, sac, geddon... and thats just amarr. minmatar uses them on several ships and caldari has gun ships so tell me, dr. dumb-azz, how is this a caldari nerf? one still has the ability to train with the same amount of dps/rof, youll just need to put the same training time into them as the gun guys do.

i do happen to know how to use drones a little. 10.5m sp on one toon, 10.4m sp on another. bomber 4 on my main. 3 toons with sentry 5, etc. etc. i agree that the drone training progression needs help. one shouldnt reach sentry 5 and be able to know how to use every race. if that were the case, why do we have to train each race's spec for mobile drones?
food for thought.

this post isnt about bashing any race. this post is about making the weapon systems the same training time to use.

in the navy right now, you learn basic gunnery, then move on to your weapon system. if i taught someone to use the 16" cannons on the old battleships, i wouldnt force them to learn 50 cal machine guns, then 5", then the 8' to get to 16'.
i would teach them gunnery skills then how to use the gun i want them to use.
but, i can understand how you want some training time on basics and working your way up (at least some).

missiles should follow the same path IMO. rockets, hams then torps or lights, heavies then cruise. then spec in one direction or another.
we train light, med, large guns, then spec in close or long range.

you are firing different missiles from different launchers. each launcher has different requirements.

i saw we/you, but i use both. been using guns most of eve, but i have almost everything else maxed out.

no gunnery skills affect missile fittings if you check they're engineering skills.... ccp changed the group

Just to be fair, to finish balancing turrets vs missiles skills they need to split energy/hybrid/projectiles turret skills into their appropriate close and long range variants:
Large Projectile Turret should be split into Large Autocannons and Large Artillery skills
Large Hybrid Turret split into Large Blasters and Large Railguns.
Large Energy Turret skill split into Large Pulse Lasers and Large beam Lasers skills.
etc.

Specialization skills are already split so there is no need to change them.

After reading OP's post I am 100% convinced he does not use missiles. At all. Ever.

Furthermore, I am convinced any attempts to say he does will be flat-out lies.

I'm not convinced anymore that OP even uses weapons at all. OP is probably also an idiot.


OP: Let me break it down for you. I'll use caps so you can read it easily and also to express my scathing contempt at you trying to "rebalance" something that you clearly have less than no understanding of.

• Frigate size: ROCKETS are SHORT RANGE. LIGHT MISSILES are LONG RANGE.


• Cruiser size: HAMs are SHORT RANGE. HEAVY MISSILES are LONG RANGE.
*RLMLs are Undersized Long Range, turret equivalents exist.


• Battleship size: TORPEDOES are SHORT RANGE. CRUISES are LONG RANGE.
*RHMLs are Undersized Long Range, turret equivalents exist.


• Capital size: CITADEL TORPS are SHORT RANGE. CITADEL CRUISE are LONG RANGE.

That means Rockets, HAMs, Torps and Citadel Torps are the "Autocannons" of the missile world while Light Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruises and Citadel Cruises are the "Artillery" of the missile world.

That means short range missiles have two types of T2 ammunition just like autocannons do, while long range missiles have two types of T2 ammunition as well, just like artillery does.

Don't get hung up on "but the skill books!" because that's a stupid thing to get hung up on. Use your brain for once and try to do some logical processing. You just might see that what I've said is completely right and the structure of required skills, as usual, has absolutely nothing to do with the way actual gameplay is designed and balanced.

The weapon structure is fine. Stop trying to mess it up by making the rest of us train even more skills.

Now put on the dunce cap and go stand in the corner until the end of class.

Haha. LMFAO.

Here's some hard numbers for you to ponder. These times are from my hauler alt who's weapons skills consist only of Small Hybrid Turret 3.

Minimum skills for all t2 weapons and capital weapons, no support skills beyond those required. Attributes optimized.

Missiles: 80d, 14h - 15 unique skills
Hybrids: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills (added 3h to compensate for known skills)
Projectiles: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills
Lasers: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills

Based on real data, your argument for nerfing missile training times or adding more skills is void as missiles are already nerfed in the training times. I will also note that capital cruise launchers and capital torpedo launchers require 2 different skills to use, whereas capital guns use one skill for both long range and short range.

If you're so insistent on balance, I will agree. Lower missile training times and combine the siege weapons into one skill. Either that or increase gun train times and split the siege guns into two categories.

Good day.

P.S. The results of this test on evemon was truly surprising. I honestly expected the missiles times to be shorter myself.

Actually, its more like training light auto cannons, medium auto cannons, then heavy artillery. Think of cruise/torps as artillery/autocannons, rails/blasters and beam/pulse.



Same problem of looking at it wrong, don't think of precision/rage missiles for each missile system as the equivilent of long/short range weaponry, but long/short range ammo, similar to how pulse have scorch for long range and conflagration for short range.



Same as above



This is correct though, guided missiles should need the lower bracket guided missile as a pre-req, and unguided missiles the same.



As before, this would be like needing scorch spec and conflag spec, a more appropriate way to do it that would put it inline with the guns would be:

Light Missiles........ -> Heavy Missiles................ -> BS Missiles
.............v ............................v.......................................v
Rocket Spec.......... -> Heavy Assault Spec -> Torp Spec
Light Missile Spec -> Heavy Missile Spec -> Cruise Spec

It doesn't matter what you use, you'll have WU V and AWU V anyway. If you don't have them then I don't know what to say to you.