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Regarding E-YJ8G last night

First post First post First post
Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-11-23 21:47:23 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Open up monitor during a fight like this, and what do I see?

The client is fetching bounties and killrights. Again and again and again.

Nobody ******* needs these in a large null battle. Killrights are completely irrelevant, and bounties can be payed out later/ Seriously, why are bounties still payed out instantly, when NPC bounties are on a 20 minute tick for the exact reason of avoiding excess server load?
This information is actually not fetched from the location node, but rather a dedicated service that runs elsewhere in the cluster.

And yet, when my game becomes unresponsive, this is almost always what's clogging up the backlog.



guess you are confused between cause and effect here

The server still has to send that information to the client. It's all getting bottlenecked somewhere.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Powers Sa
#82 - 2013-11-23 22:36:00 UTC
Will you please do a devblog about drones/fighterbombers making the nodes forcefully eat poop?

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-11-23 23:10:18 UTC
Looking forward to the next thread: "Regarding ZJA-6U last night".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-11-23 23:41:00 UTC
I don't get how people can be old enough to fly supercarriers and not know about CCP reimbursement policies. I knew that if I lost my battlecruiser for whatever reason I'm not getting it back when that was the only thing I could fly.
Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-11-23 23:45:35 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I don't get how people can be old enough to fly supercarriers and not know about CCP reimbursement policies. I knew that if I lost my battlecruiser for whatever reason I'm not getting it back when that was the only thing I could fly.

super pilots tend to be primadonnas, which is just another reason that all supers should be destroyed
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#86 - 2013-11-24 00:08:34 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
MestariBation wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Hiya folks, just a quick post about the node death that prematurely ended the fighting in E-YJ8G.

Technical investigation is ongoing, but it's clear that there was some run-away processing that took over 5 minutes of un-interrupted CPU time to complete. Our cluster is set up to assume that any node that is unresponsive for more than 3 minutes is dead and is removed forcefully from the cluster so that the show may go on elsewhere.

We're investigating why exactly that spike in execution happened and I'm hopeful we can knock it back in line. We'll be able to share more details of what exactly happened once a fix is deployed.
Just reimbuse everyhting and its fine.
Section 1.5 here http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-reimbursement-policy covers fleet fights.
Doesn't 1.3 pretty much say that reimbursement can happen?
Since it was due to a server error, and not the actual combat?
Reiisha
#87 - 2013-11-24 01:43:59 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


Line of sight fire. Blobbing will be ineffective since people have to account for friendly ships being in line of sight. This would also require actual formations, multiple warp-in points, in the process making instaprobing pointless and fight distances relevant again.

You're welcome.


Not to mention increasing the amount of calculations the server has to do exponentially.

Try again with less smug.


It's a very simple vector calculation. Even in 4000+ man fights, at most there'd be about 2000 per server tick, which even gets stretched out with tidi. Vector calculations are extremely cheap to do computationally so i don't see how it would significantly increase server load.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-11-24 04:04:37 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Eram Fidard wrote:
Reiisha wrote:


Line of sight fire. Blobbing will be ineffective since people have to account for friendly ships being in line of sight. This would also require actual formations, multiple warp-in points, in the process making instaprobing pointless and fight distances relevant again.

You're welcome.


Not to mention increasing the amount of calculations the server has to do exponentially.

Try again with less smug.


It's a very simple vector calculation. Even in 4000+ man fights, at most there'd be about 2000 per server tick, which even gets stretched out with tidi. Vector calculations are extremely cheap to do computationally so i don't see how it would significantly increase server load.

Uh no, it's not that simple.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#89 - 2013-11-24 06:19:36 UTC
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-11-24 06:25:16 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.


The best node CCP have on hands right now were described by a DEV as OC'd Xeon CPU cores. At some point, you can;t really push the clocks any higher while keeping the system stable for long enough. LN2 cooling is cool and all to set records but you can;t really run **** for full days with that. Having a server admin being paid to pour LN2 in the CPU cooler all day? Definitely gonna happen... NOT.
Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#91 - 2013-11-24 06:28:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.


The best node CCP have on hands right now were described by a DEV as OC'd Xeon CPU cores. At some point, you can;t really push the clocks any higher while keeping the system stable for long enough. LN2 cooling is cool and all to set records but you can;t really run **** for full days with that. Having a server admin being paid to pour LN2 in the CPU cooler all day? Definitely gonna happen... NOT.



I'm not too savvy with computers, so I figured it was worth the question. You say it is unrealistic to have it run like that for days on end...would it be possible to just have something like that kick in when major activities such as these battles happen? then it'd be a max of maybe 6 hours at a time, whenever there was a huge fight?

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#92 - 2013-11-24 06:34:34 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.

If that was possible it would've been done already. For every hardware upgrade players will just stack more ships/drones in system.

Quoting myself for possible fix:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Problem is not in drone assist, but in slowcat format overall: all those drones just lag the system and are reason for crashed nodes. Bottomless drone bay should go away (each assembled drone in bay takes a bit of CPU time to calculate its shield regen, keep track of armor and hull HP etc...). Solution for this is not simple: CCP might have to remove +1drone/level from carriers, forbid carriers using normal drones/sentries, buff fighters and make DDAs/Omnilinks affect fighters. Same treatment for supers.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#93 - 2013-11-24 06:37:01 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.

If that was possible it would've been done already. For every hardware upgrade players will just stack more ships/drones in system.

Quoting myself for possible fix:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Problem is not in drone assist, but in slowcat format overall: all those drones just lag the system and are reason for crashed nodes. Bottomless drone bay should go away (each assembled drone in bay takes a bit of CPU time to calculate its shield regen, keep track of armor and hull HP etc...). Solution for this is not simple: CCP might have to remove +1drone/level from carriers, forbid carriers using normal drones/sentries, buff fighters and make DDAs/Omnilinks affect fighters. Same treatment for supers.


If you do that, doesn't that negate a carrier/super carrier's main strength?

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#94 - 2013-11-24 06:48:30 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
If you do that, doesn't that negate a carrier/super carrier's main strength?

Please define: carrier/super carrier's main strength. I'd say it is its role as logistic ship.

They did that once already. They removed +1drone/level from galente drone ships(guardian-vexor is sole survivor) but introduced adv. drone interfacing skill to compensate. In this case compensation will be in form of fighter buff with drone upgrade modules (carriers are supposed to use fighters, not drones). Supercarriers are limited to fighter-bombers already.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2013-11-24 06:48:50 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.

If that was possible it would've been done already. For every hardware upgrade players will just stack more ships/drones in system.

Quoting myself for possible fix:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Problem is not in drone assist, but in slowcat format overall: all those drones just lag the system and are reason for crashed nodes. Bottomless drone bay should go away (each assembled drone in bay takes a bit of CPU time to calculate its shield regen, keep track of armor and hull HP etc...). Solution for this is not simple: CCP might have to remove +1drone/level from carriers, forbid carriers using normal drones/sentries, buff fighters and make DDAs/Omnilinks affect fighters. Same treatment for supers.


If you do that, doesn't that negate a carrier/super carrier's main strength?


There is a constant stream of people who believe that a stream of poorly equipped poorly skilled people should trump anything else in this game, and that having the most friends is all that should matter.

Those people will constantly seek to undermine and nerf anything that doesn't fit that form, hence all the crying about carriers. We've been using sentry carriers for years in huge fights, the nodes didn't die then, they're dying now, its not about the carriers its something else thats been altered in the code somewhere that's changed the way the game operates in a negative way, and instead of simply admitting that, the 'warm bodies' crowd is simply blaming it on what's currently in their way.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#96 - 2013-11-24 06:49:05 UTC
So there was a big fight in ZJA tonight with 300 carriers on a station vs. 200 dreads and the node held up. The tidi was smooth and controls were responsive. The notable difference between tonight and last night was the absence of supercarriers and fighterbombers.
Decian Cor
Stronghelm Corporation
Solyaris Chtonium
#97 - 2013-11-24 06:50:19 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
If you do that, doesn't that negate a carrier/super carrier's main strength?

Please define: carrier/super carrier's main strength. I'd say it is its role as logistic ship.

They did that once already. They removed +1drone/level from galente drone ships(guardian-vexor is sole survivor) but introduced adv. drone interfacing skill to compensate. In this case compensation will be in form of fighter buff with drone upgrade modules (carriers are supposed to use fighters, not drones). Supercarriers are limited to fighter-bombers already.



Got it! Thanks for the clarification.

I'm still rather new and exploding around in cruisers as it is :)

[u]Unfiltered for the masses.[/u]

http://imgur.com/mzSl1Ie

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2013-11-24 06:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
(carriers are supposed to use fighters, not drones)..


Says who? Carriers have always used drones, since their creation and inception they've had drones, so I would think the people that designed them should be able to say what they're supposed to have, not your random ill informed opinion.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-11-24 06:54:14 UTC
Decian Cor wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Decian Cor wrote:
Maybe I am just terribly naive, but couldn't this all be resolved with more/better hardware that was able to deal these kinds of fights?

I'm sure there is money for it.


The best node CCP have on hands right now were described by a DEV as OC'd Xeon CPU cores. At some point, you can;t really push the clocks any higher while keeping the system stable for long enough. LN2 cooling is cool and all to set records but you can;t really run **** for full days with that. Having a server admin being paid to pour LN2 in the CPU cooler all day? Definitely gonna happen... NOT.



I'm not too savvy with computers, so I figured it was worth the question. You say it is unrealistic to have it run like that for days on end...would it be possible to just have something like that kick in when major activities such as these battles happen? then it'd be a max of maybe 6 hours at a time, whenever there was a huge fight?



Think of it as having a fuel system for your car which can only feed it for like 20 mins and to do a longer run, you have to re-fill that reserve while the car is running or your engine will blow-up. You can't just stop to fill it either because something actually relies on the car being kept running.

The real solution is not in hardware but in a better game engine but asking for a better engine is really like asking to re-invent the wheel to make the engine use more core for a single system. Right now, from what I remember reading, they are trying to offload some stuff from the node to other unit so the system can have more resources dedicated to it in the form of more clock cycle not being clogged by it. There is probably some gain to be made more easily than re-doing the whole game with parallel processing.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#100 - 2013-11-24 07:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
how about, get a different server/shard when big fights happen switch to that server and the resulting consequences can then be copied onto this one until they have better tech to handle this. /random useless idea #19034907

derp, seems like tidi threads are coming up each week now.. (although this was done by a dev P )

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC