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TiDi - A bandaid solution to a Big Problem

Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#21 - 2013-11-23 19:43:56 UTC
Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local.

Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great.
Jythier Smith
BGG Wolves
#22 - 2013-11-23 19:44:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Drone assist is broken, but it's not the cause of the problem.


Perhaps but 4000 drones cant help one would think.


Unless they're 4000 programer drones.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2013-11-23 19:56:24 UTC
octahexx Charante wrote:
tidi havent solved anything.
unless you consider watchign ata stillframe frozen for 4hours better then a blackscreen.

If you actually consider that progress and fun i feel sorry for you.


After what I used to go through I'll take TiDi and be happy.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#24 - 2013-11-23 19:57:10 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local.

Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great.


nodes have more than one system on them.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#25 - 2013-11-23 20:11:03 UTC
Jita is another interesting case.

Because there's such low risk hanging out with the most dangerous and unpredictable entity (other players) while in highsec, people will flock together in a centralized location to do trade. There's little point in doing business other hubs because for the most part, things are most efficient and cheaper in the same singular location.

The result is a single system for trade that has a huge hardware requirement with player limits and TiDi.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-11-23 21:24:30 UTC
Root of the problem ....

1) No friendly fire ... guns fire through friendly ships, how nice.
2) No AoE damage from exploding ships.

You design a game for the mindless blob, you naturally get a mindless blob in return.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Prince Kobol
#27 - 2013-11-23 22:29:14 UTC
I absolutely hate being involved large scale fights now.

I simply do not have the time to sit there for hours and hours on end and knowing that nothing will be accomplished because there is a very good chance the node will crash.

So question is what is the point?

I do not blame any alliance for wanting to bring more people to a fight.

The point of any engagement is to win and it is usually those who have more numbers that do win.

The fact is CCP has needed to do something with Sov Warfare Mechanics and have totally ignored it.

The entire nature of Sov Warfare means you need large numbers to grind structures which in turns means large fleets.

The problem will only get worse as alliances / coalitions grow in size and are able to bring more people to any given fight.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#28 - 2013-11-24 18:14:12 UTC
Honestly, I think it's a failure for nullblocs to innovate their strategy, which is partially the fault of sov mechanics (it's difficult to create a situation where it's advantageous to be in more than one place) and partially the fault of nullblocs blindly barging through their problems one timer at a time with as many numbers as possible.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2013-11-24 18:20:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right now, I am in a high sec system, at least 4 jumps from low sec, let alone null.
And we have Tidi at 77%, (was 87% a moment ago) with 33 people in local.
…and what does the distance to null or low have to do with anything? How do you determine how many people are on the node with you?

Quote:
Yeah, this TiDi thing is working great.
It sure is. Or were you just being erroneously sarcastic based on not really understanding how the server is set up or how TiDi works?
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#30 - 2013-11-24 18:32:00 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Root of the problem ....

1) No friendly fire ... guns fire through friendly ships, how nice.
2) No AoE damage from exploding ships.

You design a game for the mindless blob, you naturally get a mindless blob in return.


AoE damage from exploding ships is good. The friendly fire thing... not so.

The thing is, Space is big. Really really big. Positioning ships so they aren't in the line of fire would be easy if eve were real. It is the game interface that makes ships clusterfisk the way they do in game.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#31 - 2013-11-24 18:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Serptimis wrote:

Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Finally a good post.

The problem is the way the players are playing the game, because that is what the game rewards most.

How do you design an MMO that doesn't facilitate players working together?


By providing multiple objectives scattered around attacked space that have to be dealt with at the same time you don't need to prevent players from woking together. Current political map allows this to happen as we live in the era of power blocks. Leave massive fights for main objectives (stations, for example), but have a way of contesting space that would require engagement spread through multiple systems at the same time. That way we will still have massive collaboration, huge numbers involved, open possibility for coalitions and still have a potential solution to regular 3 FPS fights.
Suicidal Blonde
Alchemical Aquisitions
#32 - 2013-11-24 18:55:23 UTC
I like the idea of discouraging blobs with aoe explosion and line of sight issues. could even add a skill called something like 'fleet formation mastery ' that organises your fleet into coherent firing positions.
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#33 - 2013-11-24 22:28:25 UTC
+1 OP, I like this thread.
Hi.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#34 - 2013-11-25 04:37:34 UTC
I don't think line of sight will ever be a thing because there's already quite a bit of calculation going on that the server can't handle.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#35 - 2013-11-25 06:25:17 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
I don't think line of sight will ever be a thing because there's already quite a bit of calculation going on that the server can't handle.


I think LOS should be a thing because it adds so much to the tactical possibilities. I'm sure nVidia or someone in the graphics hardware domain has a piece of ray-tracing hardware which would make LOS calculations trivially easy to do in parallel on the same motherboard as the processor managing the combat simulation. It might even be possible to offload hit/miss and effective damage calculations to such a piece of hardware. Then all the simulator would be responsible for is physics and marshalling inputs and outputs. Then some of that could be offloaded, since vector processing belongs on a maths unit … and all that's left is marshalling data and keeping track of time. Of course that's the paper-napkin plan from the person whose crowning achievement to date has been porting apps from badly written PHP to badly written Django Lol
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-11-25 07:08:53 UTC
Enemy has a bigger blob than you?

Friendship is magic.

Things are only impossible until they are not.

Mira Skyloafer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-11-25 07:15:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
I don't think line of sight will ever be a thing because there's already quite a bit of calculation going on that the server can't handle.


I think LOS should be a thing because it adds so much to the tactical possibilities. I'm sure nVidia or someone in the graphics hardware domain has a piece of ray-tracing hardware which would make LOS calculations trivially easy to do in parallel on the same motherboard as the processor managing the combat simulation. It might even be possible to offload hit/miss and effective damage calculations to such a piece of hardware. Then all the simulator would be responsible for is physics and marshalling inputs and outputs. Then some of that could be offloaded, since vector processing belongs on a maths unit … and all that's left is marshalling data and keeping track of time. Of course that's the paper-napkin plan from the person whose crowning achievement to date has been porting apps from badly written PHP to badly written Django Lol


It would be better to offload the physics to a discrete graphics processor instead of the hit/miss calculations, as they are both better at those respective tasks. But that's beside the point.

The problem with line of site is that all the server knows (for the purpose of this discussion) is your position and velocity, and that you are firing at a target. It could make an educated guess as to whether you hit a friendly based on their position, but it couldn't know their bounding box accurately. All the graphics stuff is handled on your computer based on info sent from the server. There is no ray tracing happening on the server. It would also have to make this calculation for everyone on grid each time anyone fires. That's a lot of extra server load.

AOE from exploding ships would be easier because it would work just like a missile explosion calculations. However, if you want TiDi to go away, you need solutions that require less server load and not more.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-11-25 07:20:49 UTC
This isn't going to be not garbage until they figure out how to utilize multiple cores for node processing.
Sakaron Hefdover
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-11-25 09:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakaron Hefdover
Removing drone models altogether might help. I don't remember anyone that liked drone models.

I also think there should be more AOE in the game, and along with that, have formations that people warp into on grid.

EDIT: I reckon it would be very well received
Suicidal Blonde
Alchemical Aquisitions
#40 - 2013-11-25 09:20:46 UTC
The issue with bounding boxescould be solved by using sig radii. afaik eve considers all ships spheres. if their sphere is between the two targets damage happens to them. missiles might be problematic.
I realise im probably grossly simplifying the task.