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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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mama guru
Yazatas.
#221 - 2013-11-23 18:18:58 UTC
I don't care how the UI looks aslong as we get rid of the 0.0001 isk wars and make trade botting harder somehow.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Careby
#222 - 2013-11-23 18:30:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
...I still have yet to hear anyone adequately answer:
Why should buy orders be guaranteed?

For the same reason that sell orders are guaranteed? If fake orders are a "good thing" then why not let everyone put up orders for items for sale even if they don't have the items. After all, the order will just fail with no harm done, right? The only thing we lose is information about the true picture of the marketplace.

(And in case it wasn't obvious, that was intended to be sarcastic - not an actual suggestion.)
Luca Lure
Obertura
#223 - 2013-11-23 18:37:38 UTC
Destoya wrote:
I'm all for the removal of the margin trading scam; I think something that appears to work in the market UI (selling a valuable item in the case of the scam) should work. Scams should in my opinion require some human error (ex selling 2 plex for 1 or w/e), not just not understanding how the orders work.


The error is, that you trade without knowledge, which is a mistake. Ask all the people who got into the stock market and lost money. They know you should inform yourself first.

If it aint broken, don't fix it. There is enough other stuff to fix. So please leave the market alone. It is working.

――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――

The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#224 - 2013-11-23 19:18:46 UTC
Careby wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
...I still have yet to hear anyone adequately answer:
Why should buy orders be guaranteed?

For the same reason that sell orders are guaranteed?
But they aren't, so why should buy orders?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Careby
#225 - 2013-11-23 19:43:59 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Careby wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
...I still have yet to hear anyone adequately answer:
Why should buy orders be guaranteed?

For the same reason that sell orders are guaranteed?
But they aren't, so why should buy orders?

Feel free to define "guaranteed" any way you want. Every market sell order has an item behind it, and if you are first in line and pay the ISK, you get the item. That's exactly the sort of "guarantee" I'd like to see for buy orders, i.e. if I am first in line and offer the item, I get the ISK. A buy order with no ISK behind it is useless, so why show it as a market order?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#226 - 2013-11-23 19:59:19 UTC
I understand the view, re the "guarantee", but....strictly as an end user, how do you know that when you sell to an order and it fails, what the reason is?

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#227 - 2013-11-23 20:11:23 UTC
Why not have it so that at V it is 24% of the buy order or minimum one payout whichever is greater and will constantly take from your wallet to make up the difference.
If your wallet goes below the minimum the order is suspended/cancelled.
TheFourteenthTry
Unicorn Balls
#228 - 2013-11-23 20:30:37 UTC
I have done a lot of Margin based trading in my years playing EVE. I am worried a lot about the effect of doing either of the options mentioned by CCP Rise. Having billions more ISK in your margin buys than in your wallet is a great way to have more potential hits, and either option could really effect how that is played/enjoyed by many honest EVE players (all 2 of them). It also gives EVE market places unique qualities and realism that just isn't found in others games.

Although I would like it fixed, I don't know if it is worth the effect it has on happy market traders. I think a much simpler solution would be to include est price (EVE wide est. average price seen in inventories) in the market bar next to the item. This would allow people to see what the item is selling for EVE wide. Yes, it would still be possible to effect the market prices of low volume worthless items, and continue to trick people into buying expensive crap. But this is EVE and the victims here are just trying to make an easy buck. If it seems to good to be true, then it is...

The lessons you learn in EVE are important, so I would argue that this issue is not really even a bug it is a feature. in the sandbox people have learned to use to con greedy idiots, which I have been on more occasions than I would like to admit Shocked
Mag's
Azn Empire
#229 - 2013-11-23 21:17:02 UTC
Careby wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Careby wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
...I still have yet to hear anyone adequately answer:
Why should buy orders be guaranteed?

For the same reason that sell orders are guaranteed?
But they aren't, so why should buy orders?

Feel free to define "guaranteed" any way you want. Every market sell order has an item behind it, and if you are first in line and pay the ISK, you get the item. That's exactly the sort of "guarantee" I'd like to see for buy orders, i.e. if I am first in line and offer the item, I get the ISK. A buy order with no ISK behind it is useless, so why show it as a market order?

I define it as it is meant and sell orders are not guaranteed. Unless there is another definition of the word, in your world.

So the question remains, why should buy orders be guaranteed?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#230 - 2013-11-23 22:47:52 UTC
Posting again despite my better judgement to confirm that sell orders are not guaranteed. Someone else could buy the item before you do, the seller could also change the price or cancel the order.
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#231 - 2013-11-23 22:48:30 UTC
TheFourteenthTry wrote:
I have done a lot of Margin based trading in my years playing EVE. I am worried a lot about the effect of doing either of the options mentioned by CCP Rise. Having billions more ISK in your margin buys than in your wallet is a great way to have more potential hits, and either option could really effect how that is played/enjoyed by many honest EVE players (all 2 of them). It also gives EVE market places unique qualities and realism that just isn't found in others games.

Although I would like it fixed, I don't know if it is worth the effect it has on happy market traders. I think a much simpler solution would be to include est price (EVE wide est. average price seen in inventories) in the market bar next to the item. This would allow people to see what the item is selling for EVE wide. Yes, it would still be possible to effect the market prices of low volume worthless items, and continue to trick people into buying expensive crap. But this is EVE and the victims here are just trying to make an easy buck. If it seems to good to be true, then it is...

The lessons you learn in EVE are important, so I would argue that this issue is not really even a bug it is a feature. in the sandbox people have learned to use to con greedy idiots, which I have been on more occasions than I would like to admit Shocked


This.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#232 - 2013-11-23 23:23:08 UTC
Could just work it as an Impound system

If an item is sold to an order where the buyer doesn't have the ISK to fully cover the cost, the buyer gets the percentage of the items cost from Escrow and as much funds as is available in the Sellers wallet as possible. The item is placed in the Buyers Impound and requires the remaining ISK to be paid to be released to the buyer.

If this occurs within a week of the sale, the seller gets the ISK and the Buyer gets the item. If not, the Seller gets the Item back and keeps the ISK already paid. Biomassing the Buyer would immediately return all impounded items to the seller.

Could even have it that if you have an item in Impound in a Station, you cannot raise any additional Buy orders that would affect that station until the Impound was cleared. Current orders would be unaffected but would keep going to impound and eating your Escrow if you still did not have enough to cover the Sale.
Thoraemond
Far Ranger
#233 - 2013-11-23 23:45:48 UTC
A sensible market broker, taking his or her job seriously, would require that pilots maintain a balance in escrow at all times in relation to each of their orders, probably something like the larger of: (a) the percentage of the total order determined by the pilot's Margin Trading skill level, and (b) the amount needed to cover the minimum quantity.

Not too computationally-intensive, since it is checked only when a transaction is executed against the order. If a draw from the wallet fails to replenish the minimum escrow, the order is cancelled. This eliminates the utility of the Margin Trading skill for 1-unit buy orders, but it retains most of the utility of the skill, and I prefer this over eliminating the skill altogether.

When a pilot tries to sell more than the minimum units, and there is insufficient ISK in escrow+wallet to buy all those units (since only the minimum quantity is necessarily covered by escrow), all units that can be purchased with the available ISK should be sold.


P.S. Please no new colours or pilot-identifying information on the Market UI. Prefer no new addition, but if anything, perhaps a column showing how much can be purchased using the ISK in escrow, either: (a) the percentage of the whole order, or (b) the number of units.

• Graph re Market Order Broker Fees (Updated 2016-04-28) • Diagram re Skills for Remote Trading •
Abla Tive
#234 - 2013-11-24 01:45:00 UTC
How about this:

If there is not enough money to cover a buy order, *all* buy orders of that trader are colored red.

This color lasts for 3 months from the last time the trader got into that situation.

It would not completely remove the scam, but would make repeat executions more tedious.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#235 - 2013-11-24 01:49:56 UTC
I notice one thing immediately.

You simply state that it's a problem and move on, without really establishing that there really is a problem at all.

I do not view it as a failure of the UI. The tools and information exist already to establish to a fair degree of certainty whether something is a scam or not. It's not that the tools are inadequate, it's that people simply are not using them correctly.

And that's not something that has to be fixed. At all.

Changing Margin Trading runs 2 distinct risks. Firstly, damaging legitimate uses for the skill. I know several people (not myself, I am a poor marketeer) who rely on this skill as it currently exists for their industry and manufacturing, both buy and sell orders.

Secondly, it removes the assumption of necessary due diligence on the part of the players. Because the tools do exist to determine legitimacy of an order, it is the responsibility of the individual player to not spend their money foolishly.

Just because a subset of whiny, irresponsible, lazy or stupid players want to cede more of their own responsibilities to the computer doesn't mean it should be done. In fact it means the opposite.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Truth Quantico
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2013-11-24 03:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Truth Quantico
Nil'kandra wrote:
Ever since I saw that "Market Fine" was an option in your wallet log dropdown, I wondered why it was never implemented for this reason.

You can create a disincentive *and* an isk sink. If people just keep using new chars to get around negative wallet issues in doing this, then you just increased the margin needed to make a scam worth it, making a isk sink and an SP sink that hits the scammers only. People get scammed still because, let's face it, EVE is harsh at times.

Might want to push up the skill needs on the Margin Trade skill while you're at it. SP sink also would be a huge disincentive to scammers.


QFA.

Adding a completely new mechanic with market fines, station trading lockouts, and trader ratings would also work, but prohibitive fines for failed orders seems a simpler solution that could knock off 98% of scam occurrences.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#237 - 2013-11-24 03:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Really this shouldn't be that hard to fix.

Make margin trading not apply towards the 5 most expensive buy orders. If at any time the the seller cannot cover the top 5 buy orders, then those orders are automatically cancelled, and the auto-canceling continues until there are at least 5 orders that can be covered.

Don't color code orders for margin trading, but color code trades with minimum orders above 1.


I see margin trading as something to allow us to have many orders that don't have to be fully covered. Mainly because they are unlikely to be filled all at once. Using margin trading for a very short list of orders is where most of the problems arise it seems.

Another option is negative isk. Just like someone gets caught with RMT. If you bid on something at an auction, you have to pay for it somehow even if you realize after you bid that you can't really afford it.

So they seller still gets paid, and the scammer gets a load of debt to pay off. All orders autocancel and if that is still not enough, that character becomes effectively unplayable. Not usable on trial accounts.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#238 - 2013-11-24 03:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Truth Quantico wrote:
QFA.

Adding a completely new mechanic with market fines, station trading lockouts, and trader ratings would also work, but prohibitive fines for failed orders seems a simpler solution that could knock off 98% of scam occurrences.



That would, in fact, affect 0% of Margin Scammers and significantly affect the ~99% of active traders who are not perfectly precognitive.

Here's how you margin scam with punitive failed order fines.
1) Make buy order on behalf of Corp wallet 1.
2) Empty Escrow as normal
3) Someone buys your overpriced stuff (at this point, the scam is over).
4) The mark tries to sell to the buy order.
5) The order fails, and the corp wallet goes negative with fines.
6) Repeat with Wallet 2, or start a new corp if you're out of wallets.

or:
1) Eat the fines. If they're high enough to actually discourage (ignoring the above workaround) scams, they'd be absolutely devastating to any normal beginning to intermediate trader. So the fines wouldn't be all that high.


There are a couple fundamental problems with trying to "fix" the Margin Trading scam by changing the Margin Trading skill:
1) The scam is over before anyone touches the buy order.
2) The scam does not require the Margin Trading skill to be viable.
3) The only people hurt by the many proposed changes are those who use the skill for reasons other than scamming.
4) There's no actual problem to fix.
The market provides accurate information. The "problem" crops up when people make false assumptions about that information and draw inaccurate conclusions from those assumptions. They then complain about it rather than reworking their assumptions to match reality.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#239 - 2013-11-24 04:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
RubyPorto wrote:
The market provides accurate information. The "problem" crops up when people make false assumptions about that information and draw inaccurate conclusions from those assumptions. They then complain about it rather than reworking their assumptions to match reality.

I see the only problem as the game is pretty damn complex and there's no instruction manual. Adding the small bit of information to the UI 'buy orders are not guaranteed to be backed by the full amount of ISK' continues the current development trend of making EVE easier to understand and manipulate while maintaining mechanical complexity

e: and cold dark harsh etc. if people ignore that piece of information, or don't factor it into their decisions, it's on their head
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#240 - 2013-11-24 05:20:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The market provides accurate information. The "problem" crops up when people make false assumptions about that information and draw inaccurate conclusions from those assumptions. They then complain about it rather than reworking their assumptions to match reality.

I see the only problem as the game is pretty damn complex and there's no instruction manual. Adding the small bit of information to the UI 'buy orders are not guaranteed to be backed by the full amount of ISK' continues the current development trend of making EVE easier to understand and manipulate while maintaining mechanical complexity

e: and cold dark harsh etc. if people ignore that piece of information, or don't factor it into their decisions, it's on their head

Pretty much. Education is the issue here, not mechanics.
To be really nice, the same warning text could also state that “Listed prices may not represent normal trade prices. For data on trade prices, please consult the trade history.”