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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2041 - 2013-11-23 01:08:24 UTC
Habris wrote:
I could not agree more.

Wasn't me (Fourteen Maken).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2042 - 2013-11-23 01:29:15 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You're not even able to read a ship description, I give up.


Good
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2043 - 2013-11-23 01:38:26 UTC
@Arthur

Editted, although you'd be alot cooler if you had said that.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2044 - 2013-11-23 01:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Seriously... I get that players are not happy with the RLML changes. But this incessant whining is getting tiresome, and I sincerely doubt it's going to have the desired effect. So how about we discuss some KISS fixes?

• Reduce the reload time on RLMLs to 20 or 30 seconds
• Increase the ammunition capacity on RLMLs by 25-50%
• Some combination thereof

Actually it would need to be both of the above...

According to my own tests between my equally skilled alts. I found the following out: Raven cannot kill a DNI within a single clip. In fact, it failed to kill the ship at all. The drake ended up winning that fight all due to that 40 second reload time.

600+ DPS doesn't matter if you only have 23 charges to fire at a heavily resistance tanked drake. So as I said earlier, the clip size needs to be increased and the Reload timer needs to be reduced to 20 seconds, maximum.

The test results were the same when the scale of the ships was changed for a RLML set.

This is a problem for both RHMLs and RLMLs. One that should have been recognized and fixed prior to the expansion going live. CCP RIse, you fail at your job and your team fails at their jobs and your testing department fails. So CCP your grade for the work on this expansion is:

Ship balancing: A
New Modules: A
New Structures: B+
*(tractor would be more useful if it either tractor-beamed faster or had two and didn't fight each other over the same wreck when two are deployed at 5km)
UI changes: A
New Sounds: A
Missile launchers: F
*(see above and due to your lack of innovation and liberal use of the nerf-nuke)
Missiles: F
*(didn't address the real reason LMs are OP for their size, which would be the ammo not the launchers. Nor did you attempt to address the issues that presently are the crippling factor for Missiles in PvP: damage application. Highest alpha strike should be missiles. Turrets should be reliant on rate-of-fire to be competitive. Also missiles were not checked for balance after the Medium Turret buffs, which were substantial)

Average grade: D+

Congrats you did better than Retribution grade...not sure
Fourteen Maken wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Seriously... I get that players are not happy with the RLML changes. But this incessant whining is getting tiresome, and I sincerely doubt it's going to have the desired effect. So how about we discuss some KISS fixes?

• Reduce the reload time on RLMLs to 20 or 30 seconds
• Increase the ammunition capacity on RLMLs by 25-50%
• Some combination thereof


RLML's are never OP, and the new RHML's are deifinitely not OP in any way. There was nothing to fix, they would be good at doing very specific jobs (hunting cruisers with a battleship... im sure someone will find a use for them, but they are very niche imo, and when a weapon system has a role that specialized it should be extremely good at it to make up for it's shortcomings against larger targets)

The fact CCP ever thought they were OP says a lot about how out of touch they are with whats actually happening in game, there's something badly wrong with the process when that was the conclusion they reached, and it's not the first time either... go with the flow if you want but don't be surprised if the next thing on the list is a Light missile nerf or a cruise missile nerf and the only viable weapon system you have left is rail guns, they won't nerf those because it would upset a certain favoured group of players. Too many whiners on the turret side of the debate, and not enough people standing up for missiles is part of what got missiles into this mess, just sayin.

Agreed Fourteen Maken!

That said I agree with Thaddeus that 10-secs is really the best and outer limit a weapon system should be. If that was done the clip size should be increased slightly (23 to 25, 18 to 20). Then keep the 10 second reload time. The idea is to be able to kill small targets in rapid succession that is the point of Rapid Missile launchers. But as we all know, CCP Rise royally screwed it up.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2045 - 2013-11-23 02:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Habris wrote:
Editted, although you'd be alot cooler if you had said that.

Have to give credit where credit is due...

Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
According to my own tests between my equally skilled alts. I found the following out: Raven cannot kill a DNI within a single clip. In fact, it failed to kill the ship at all. The drake ended up winning that fight all due to that 40 second reload time. 600+ DPS doesn't matter if you only have 23 charges to fire at a heavily resistance tanked drake. So as I said earlier, the clip size needs to be increased and the Reload timer needs to be reduced to 20 seconds, maximum.

I assume we're talking about the RHMLs here? It's close to 1000 DPS on my Navy Raven with 26 charges, and I'm pretty sure I'd come close to neutering a Navy Drake. One could always run a mix of cruise and RHMLs. The 40-second reload time isn't overly critical for the RHML; I'm fairly happen with the weapon system as is. This isn't to say I wouldn't gladly take a 20 or 30-second reload time, either. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Habris
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2046 - 2013-11-23 02:19:26 UTC
After looking at RLML's rate of fire in contrast to LML's and compared it to RHML's and HML's. The RoF for the RLML's is a little fast compared to its heavier counter part. LML's are about the third the speed of RLML's where HML's are half the speed of RHML's. I digress that in the case of RLML's a debuff to the RoF may be prudent but still the reload nerf needs to be removed.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2047 - 2013-11-23 02:21:39 UTC
Habris wrote:
After looking at RLML's rate of fire in contrast to LML's and compared it to RHML's and HML's. The RoF for the RLML's is a little fast compared to its heavier counter part. LML's are about the third the speed of RLML's where HML's are half the speed of RHML's. I digress that in the case of RLML's a debuff to the RoF may be prudent but still the reload nerf needs to be removed.

I really need to try out the new RLMLs.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#2048 - 2013-11-23 02:43:19 UTC
The RofF has been pointed out before. Lights fire at 12s, RLMLs fire at 10s. The RofE was a issue always with them. Thank you for having people notice this, even though it has been pointed out in the forum before and other fourms.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2049 - 2013-11-23 04:35:41 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Habris wrote:
Editted, although you'd be alot cooler if you had said that.

Have to give credit where credit is due...

Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
According to my own tests between my equally skilled alts. I found the following out: Raven cannot kill a DNI within a single clip. In fact, it failed to kill the ship at all. The drake ended up winning that fight all due to that 40 second reload time. 600+ DPS doesn't matter if you only have 23 charges to fire at a heavily resistance tanked drake. So as I said earlier, the clip size needs to be increased and the Reload timer needs to be reduced to 20 seconds, maximum.

I assume we're talking about the RHMLs here? It's close to 1000 DPS on my Navy Raven with 26 charges, and I'm pretty sure I'd come close to neutering a Navy Drake. One could always run a mix of cruise and RHMLs. The 40-second reload time isn't overly critical for the RHML; I'm fairly happen with the weapon system as is. This isn't to say I wouldn't gladly take a 20 or 30-second reload time, either. Lol
With rigs, BCU's and implants you can get up around 1100 dps easily, don't know how your getting 26 rounds (unless CCP has already made changes to an aweful idea), I think you better check again, RHML capacity .70 m3, Scourge Fury Missile Volume 0.03. 0.03 X 23 = .70, you have 23 rounds, not 26.

My navy drake (without perfect skills) 114.5k EHP, Defence 157.
Navy Raven RHML, 4 X BCU, 982 DPS, 2602 volley X 23 = 59846, then a 40 second reload. Take into account heavy missiles do not apply 100% of damage to anything that is moving.

I don't think you will kill a Navy Drake.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2050 - 2013-11-23 08:58:34 UTC
Have you guys tried using cruise missiles against that Drake? I think people have their expectations of these rapid launchers set way too high. Way too high.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#2051 - 2013-11-23 11:16:02 UTC
I like the new Rapid missiles mechanics. 40s of reload time could be ok if there was a bit more missiles in the magazine. Being out of ammo during a fight will happen even with 5 ammo more in the magazine ....

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#2052 - 2013-11-23 11:22:25 UTC
1 ammo per second ie 40 per load?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2053 - 2013-11-23 16:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
So I took a RLML Cerb out last night, in a gang of 12-ish. We seemed to be three Cerbs (2 RLML, 1 HAM), two Deimos, two Ishtars, a Cynabal, a dictor, a Scimitar and two interceptors, and stupid OP OGB links, ofc. Unfortunately we never got a "proper" fight with frigates to shoot at, so I won't comment on performance in that respect. Instead we just roamed across Goon space killing everything too stupid to pay attention to intel or local, which turned out to be a bafflingly large number of people, including two carriers, a Golem and a navydomi. The closest thing to a real fight was a ReSeBoed gatecamp with pimped Ashimmu, Lachesis and cyno triage carrier support, from which we killed the Ashimmu after it thought it would be clever to burn out of rep range of the carrier. Summary.

So most of the fights were just ganks of ratters, which the RLML is well suited for, given the burst damage. OTOH, I kept having to reload from kinetic in expectation of a "proper" fight to EM/explosive as we tackled ratters, to avoid the kin/therm hardening in Guristas space, which was a real pain. The only prolonged shoot was against carriers; the reload time was deeply frustrating but the Cerb's position on the killmails seemed reasonable.

So nothing really surprising there, really. Great burst damage, deeply frustrating when reloading. (This message was brought to you by Captain Obvious.) Having to reload while moving between systems rapidly didn't seem to be as much of a problem as I'd feared - I wasn't really paying attention but does the reload still get cancelled by a gatejump? I thought I saw some odd clashes between UI display and the reload cycles.

So in conclusion, meh. I like the idea of burst damage and it is an interesting new mechanic, but 40 s... 30 would be nicer, even at the inevitable cost of lower burst DPS. And there needs to be a difference between "reloading" and "changing damage type". Roll
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#2054 - 2013-11-23 16:29:34 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Have you guys tried using cruise missiles against that Drake? I think people have their expectations of these rapid launchers set way too high. Way too high.


Expectations may be too high in some cases (shooting same sizes) but they do seem be a bit hit and miss in their designated role of shooting smaller targets.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#2055 - 2013-11-23 16:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
I tried the rapid light missile on a caracal today. 18 missiles is really not enough please up to 25 missiles in this RLML.
I ran out of ammo to all my fights before killed anything....


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20595487
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20595486
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20595346
I had to reload after the Vexor while engaged by the two others.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20600057
I was engaging an heretic when these guys came to help him. Impossible to kill the malediction because no more missiles..
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=20598861
I nearly killed the tacklers in these fight but they exchange the point and I was out of ammo.

If nothing change, the rapid light missile launchers will be excellent in medium fleets or as second weapon.
But in solo it is quite impossible to use it.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#2056 - 2013-11-23 17:07:27 UTC
I worked out the numbers on the RLML Caracal because it's the only one I would be able to use, and the effective DPS with reload time comes in at 215dps. I think that's pretty woeful for max skilled pilot using t2 Ammo in a cruiser, with my skills it translates to 164dps... Ugh
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2057 - 2013-11-23 17:11:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Habris wrote:
Editted, although you'd be alot cooler if you had said that.

Have to give credit where credit is due...

Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
According to my own tests between my equally skilled alts. I found the following out: Raven cannot kill a DNI within a single clip. In fact, it failed to kill the ship at all. The drake ended up winning that fight all due to that 40 second reload time. 600+ DPS doesn't matter if you only have 23 charges to fire at a heavily resistance tanked drake. So as I said earlier, the clip size needs to be increased and the Reload timer needs to be reduced to 20 seconds, maximum.

I assume we're talking about the RHMLs here? It's close to 1000 DPS on my Navy Raven with 26 charges, and I'm pretty sure I'd come close to neutering a Navy Drake. One could always run a mix of cruise and RHMLs. The 40-second reload time isn't overly critical for the RHML; I'm fairly happen with the weapon system as is. This isn't to say I wouldn't gladly take a 20 or 30-second reload time, either. Lol

You are incorrect, there are 23 charges in the RHML. Not 26...

Now cut that 1000 DPS in half, that is what you will deal on average. Thus you will most likely deal ~500 DPS against a moving target. Might be a bit more than that but won't be more than 750 DPS. Regardless, you will not break a drake navy issue with that ship or fitting. Not against someone with half-decent skills.

40-sec reload is an issue for both RLMLs and RHMLs. I would accept a 20sec reload. But not one that is 4x that of standard missile launchers or projectile turrets. The real issue with missiles as I have said more times than I can count is the damage application equation. It is ******** both with respect to how it is done and the values used as well as compared to motion physics. I am not reposting the entire reworked equation again. You want it it is in the HML and CML balance threads.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#2058 - 2013-11-23 20:57:47 UTC
Finally tried out RHMLs and I don't hate them. I do think the reload needs to be shortened though. Spending half your time (or more) reloading is simply not fun. And then there's the inability to switch ammo. That's a problem that isn't going away.
Vihura
Vihura Cor
#2059 - 2013-11-23 21:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vihura
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi!

As you guys know, we're introducing Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers in Rubicon for battleships that will echo the Rapid Light Launchers in design. Well, now that the current design has been out and available for discussion for awhile, we've taken on a lot of feedback and we don't feel completely satisfied with them.

The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice. We would much rather that the decision to use rapid launchers depended heavily on context and that you would choose them not because they were generally better than their competition but because your specific situation called for them.

Here's the plan to improve the situation:

Rapid Launchers (both Light and Heavy) will be changed to have a much higher damage per second number, roughly on par with Heavy Assault Launchers and Torpedo Launchers respectively, but their ammo capacity will be reduced and their reload time will be increased increased (think Ancilliary Shield Boosters). Some specifics:

Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I ------------------------- 7.8s
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II ------------------------- 6.24s
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher --- 6.24s
Other meta types not shown

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------------------ 6.48s
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II ------------------------- 5.185s
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------ 5.185s
Other meta types not shown

Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 18 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 23 charges

This translates to a Raven with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 926 dps
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.

This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger. It would generally be more interesting but would also leave more space for the main missile systems to thrive as well.

Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test.
Thanks

Nice misleading post no single word about power change from 54 to 77 thx for stealth nerf.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#2060 - 2013-11-23 22:13:32 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
40 second reload time is stupid for such a low charge yeald. 20 seconds would be more "balanced" i feel.

20 seconds would be great but I'd rather have much larger ammo capacity so I can kill something before reload. Btw, I still think the whole idea is crap and it should be removed until properly implemented. Otherwise there is a danger right there - trying to fix crap you can end up generating even more crap, being unable to turn crap into something good no matter what you do.


how about larger charge for the launcher and a skill to lower the launchers reload time by 1 second per level.. maybe an x3 or x4 skill and then a secondary for an addional 1 second per level.. at x5 or x6 so both skills take you to 30 second reload..

or simply 1 skill for -2 seconds per level to 30 seconds.. and/or ship bonus to lower reload time too?

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]