Intergalactic Summit

Meddle? The thought wouldn't even begin to ponder the idea of the possibility of crossing my mind. There's things in New Eden that's tainted to the touch and this is one of them. Criticizing ideas on the other hand is pretty much the duty of anyone willing to embrace a set of ideals or virtues. I don't think even you will be able to avoid blushing furiously if you claim not to have done so throughout your life.

I suppose the slaves that wait to be shown a more divine path towards god and redemption don't exist in your world of law and order, though. Entire tribes in some cases, subjugated and hobbled in the name of an idea of divinity. The "superiority" of the True Amarrians, as proclaimed time and time again. No, no arrogance there. Merely criminals of some sort.

The before mentioned results of her living in another state is exactly what I aim to prevent for those under my charge. And that is exactly the kind of conditions I wish to have for all of my slaves. I want them to feel happy and secure.

And if they want their freedom? I shall arrange for it when they are ready(they will be required to take an official test that has yet to be determined. I shall not be regulating it.) but not before.

Very true. And yet, at the same time, this is far more complex than that.

All the complexity comes after that initial step, was my point. To try to mix and match the complexities from the different initial positions seems silly, as it is just people talking past each other.

It seems the Holders have little faith in the "lower classes" of society. Do you think that keeping generations of people away from freedom is less damaging than allowing them to grow and learn on their own?
Through decades, history has shown us that one of the only ways to truly understanding life and the world around us is to suffer hardship, and to evolve and enlighten ourselves, despite hardship. This point that, you, are taking greater care of your lower class population, the down and outs, as some may call them, by forcing them into servitude, seems selfish. To claim that only through the service of those not truly needing help, is a path to a greater way, seems selfish.
In the words of Rao Jumen - ]"No one saves us but ourselves, no one can, and no one may, we ourselves must walk the path." How can you expect one to change and to grow if kept burdened by another man's fortunes and misfortunes, his vision clouded by the hammer and sickle in front of his eyes. Perhaps a form of guidance which is less forced may be beneficial.

I find it strange to say, but I agree with Ms. Kim here earlier in the thread, forced servitude is inefficient. I understand that many have put across their views, and I am adding, possibly to what will be a long and circular discussion. I merely hope that one day, as humanity as a whole finds enlightenment, that this act will give way, and no longer be needed, but we will never know that until those in forced servitude become free of mind, body and spirit.

1: Arrest and imprisonment in the State never involves the incarceration of the prisoner's family and close associates into the bargain, whereas it is routine in the Empire for the guilty be sentenced that they and their family be enslaved. For the innocent to be imprisoned for the crimes of another, even if the guilty is close to them personally and profesionally, is not justice.

2: The children of prisoners in the State are not prisoners. They are turned over to a megacorporate creche and raised as citizens, and are even free to associate with their parent through familial visits and once the prisoner has been rehabilitated and released back into society they may mingle freely with their offspring. The child of a slave in the Empire is also a slave.

3: Prisoners are not purchased and sold. Administrative contracts for penal facilities are traded, yes, but the actual prisoner is not a commodity. Slavery, meanwhile, is big business, and while dedicated slave markets exist in the heartlands of the Empire, in the provinces you see slaves brought and sold in the same livestock markets used to trade in cattle or sheep.

4: In keeping with the livestock theme, prisoners are not "bred" - their are no programs of mandatory procreation in a Caldari penal facility. Slaves of Amarr on the other hand, do, and one of the many results of these programs have been the Kameiras.

5: The penal arrangement in Caldari society is a contract that binds prisoner and corporation both. The prisoner is informed that their freedom of movement and association has now been curtailed by order of the Corporation, and that this condition will persist for the duration of time dictated by the judge. Work credits, education credits and good behaviour can earn reductions in this term - further criminal behaviour while imprisoned can lead to new sentences, to be added on to the existing one. The duration of a sentence is proportionate to the crime involved and dictated by law - citizens subject to incarceration which illegally exceeds the length of their sentence are entitled to compensation, a precedent established by a case that made it to the Caldari Business Tribunal in BYC 26, Luyo vs. CBD Corporation. Imperial Slaves are freed solely at the indulgence of their owner, if it is ever granted, and are covered by no objective law dictating the terms of their slavery. In short: a sentence of incarceration in the State has a fixed duration, while a sentence of slavery in the Empire has an indefinite one.

6: The families of Caldari prisoners who are wounded or killed not by natural causes are entitled to compensation, as established by Setseki vs. Hyasyoda, YC 04. The families of Imperial slaves who are wounded or killed receive such consideration again solely at the discretion of their owner, which does not have to be given.

7: The status of a prisoner in Caldari society is that they are a citizen who has been temporarily stripped of some - but not all - of their rights and privileges as due repayment for their wrongdoing. The status of a slave in Amarr society is that they are not citizens, but property.

8: Caldari prisoners only ever enter the penal system through one method - they are convicted of a crime. Amarrian slaves may become slaves through that method also - it may even be the most common method - but they are also prisoners of war, the children of existing slaves, the relatives of convicted criminals, and most damning of all: abductees. The entire Minmatar population of slaves are the descendants of those captured in a mass abduction event.

9: The crimes for which a Caldari may be imprisoned involve harming persons other than themselves, or the mistreatment of property that is not theirs to mistreat. There is no such crime as Heresy in the State, nor blasphemy. A citizen holding fringe, unpopular views may find himself socially ostracized and struggling with their career should he express those views, but will not be imprisoned for them, and certainly not for being suspected of holding them. In the Empire, meanwhile, it is an offense punishable by slavery for a person to merely hold certain opinions, to have read certain books (regardless of the conclusions they drew about said book) or for them to feel certain emotions. The term for this is thought crime, and the last time any thought crime existed in Caldari law was before we co-founded the Federation.

10: Caldari prisoners never serve in hazardous environments, conditions or roles. Slaves, meanwhile, are present on most Amarrian starships, and form the bulk of Amarrian Dangerous Environment work teams - just look at that situation with the collapsed asteroid mine a few years back. The life of a slave is considered more expendable than the life of a freedman. In Caldari society, the life of a prisoner is equal to the life of any other citizen, despite their imprisonment.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure somebody better-versed than I in State, Region and Corporate law would be able to triple the length of that list as to why the Caldari penal system is in no way alike to the the Amarrian institution of slavery.

I won't be surprised if you continue to suggest that they're the same thing though, Mithra. You've never let little things like facts get in your way before...

What part of "I am letting them choose what they want to be and making it happen" do you not understand?! And I personally do not consider them beneath me! I am simply in the position to help them, and am making use of it!

And my dear, it is rather hard NOT to take that as a personal attack.

Neither have you sticher. You continue to generalize without giving any possibilities for exceptions. Might I remind you the purpose of my post in the first place was to give insight on the actual positive form of the Amarrian system.

Both have flaws.

Just because you dislike how we do things, does not mean you get to choose for us. Our cultures are different.

And you will respect that. As I respect your culture.

I shall dare as I like.

You obviously have not been truly reading what I have been saying. If you cannot accept the exception to the rule, than you cannot accept anything anyone says that disagrees with your preconceived notions.

Truly read what I have said. Truly. Read. What. I. Have. Said.

Explain to me how what I am doing is wrong other than the fact that the institution of the method offends you. It means just as much as my saying that your penal system is offensive, because I disagree with your methods. I have never used coercion, torture, indoctrination, or drugs to convert them. They are given the choice to believe and think what they wish.

Unfortunately, fiends such as yourself that are not even worthy of kissing my excrement are also given that freedom.

Every one of my slaves, including being in their current uneducated state, are more worthy to give an opinion on this than the likes of you. You need to read what I have said before you continue.

I. Shall. Dare. For I have said my piece, and explained it quite well, and the swine still squeals at me.

And you call us bigots.

Indeed I do. Arrogant, immoral, condescending, myopic, and foolish ones. Your pride in your "rescue" efforts blinds you to the reality of what you're doing. You've brainwashed yourself, pilot. Very effectively, I might add.

You weep for the horrors those people have endured even as you lay another one upon them. You can't be surprised at the contempt I'm expressing: I reserve it for all people whose faculties of self-analysis are so atrophied.