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Change to Margin Trading skill - CCP asks for player feedback

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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
#1 - 2013-11-22 10:00:29 UTC
Good day, fellow MDers,

in case you haven't noticed yet, CCP Rise is asking for player feedback about changes to the Margin Trading skill over at the Issues & Feedback forum.

There are lots of different suggestions already on how to change the skill's mechanic, some of them would outright hurt existing legit trading and/or penalize new players/traders very much. Hop over and offer your suggestions.

tl;dr
Scamming in EVE is fine, but the UI should never "lie" to the player, which it does in case of offering a buy order that can't be fulfilled. Scamming should rely on social skills, tricking another player into an erroneous action (i.e. leaving out or adding a "0" to an amount), which the victim could detect by closely inspecting all available (game/UI) information.

EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
Nanatoa
#2 - 2013-11-22 10:59:32 UTC
Thanks for the heads up.

I proposed my solution (making the broker actually do some work) here. I think it's the least bad solution. Please like & subscribe!

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Wafflehead
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-11-22 11:07:08 UTC
This has been posted plenty of times, we do not need another topic moaning about the margin trading. Margin Trading scams only affect the stupid
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-11-22 11:26:55 UTC
Wafflehead wrote:
This has been posted plenty of times, we do not need another topic moaning about the margin trading. Margin Trading scams only affect the stupid

right, better ignore that topic and whine once the change goes live.

.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#5 - 2013-11-22 11:33:52 UTC
Thanks for the headsup :)

Have posted a wall'o'text :p

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
#6 - 2013-11-22 12:20:43 UTC
Wafflehead wrote:
This has been posted plenty of times, we do not need another topic moaning about the margin trading. Margin Trading scams only affect the stupid


I think you've mistaken my notification post as "moaning". I'm perfectly fine with the current mechanic, but obviously CCP is not and wants to change it.

The motivation behind me posting this notification here was to make MDers aware of that suggestion thread in order to be able to prevent :lolccp: changes.

EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-11-22 13:37:07 UTC
I posted my 2cents here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3910027#post3910027, explaining the escrow/wallet mechanic behind the margin trading skill. I hope that will prevent any knee jerk reaction from CCP as i doubt all devs from CCP know how it works.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-11-22 13:40:51 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
I posted my 2cents here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3910027#post3910027, explaining the escrow/wallet mechanic behind the margin trading skill. I hope that will prevent any knee jerk reaction from CCP as i doubt all devs from CCP know how it works.


Confirming that not only do they not understand how it works but no one on the csm does either, so they couldn't explain it.

Shocked

(Neither statement there is true)

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-11-22 13:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
mynnna wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
I posted my 2cents here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3910027#post3910027, explaining the escrow/wallet mechanic behind the margin trading skill. I hope that will prevent any knee jerk reaction from CCP as i doubt all devs from CCP know how it works.


Confirming that not only do they not understand how it works but no one on the csm does either, so they couldn't explain it.

Shocked

(Neither statement there is true)


I said all devs, i don't doubt some understand it, i just hope that are the relevant ones. And nobody, especially in the opening post explained in detail how the escrow/wallet mechanic works which is why the margin trading "scam" works so well in many different ways.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Wafflehead
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-11-22 17:55:05 UTC
Hel O'Ween wrote:
Wafflehead wrote:
This has been posted plenty of times, we do not need another topic moaning about the margin trading. Margin Trading scams only affect the stupid


I think you've mistaken my notification post as "moaning". I'm perfectly fine with the current mechanic, but obviously CCP is not and wants to change it.

The motivation behind me posting this notification here was to make MDers aware of that suggestion thread in order to be able to prevent :lolccp: changes.


Apologies. Although going on past behavior by CCP this will be actioned. Too many cry babies who don't know how to not fall for a scam
Vamprina Maximus
Equity Nuclear
#11 - 2013-11-22 23:27:56 UTC
I can only conclude the current margin trading scams were put in by design... There is no logical reason whatsoever a buy order with no actual money to back it up, should stay active on the market when it fails to deliver to a seller.

Yet it does..

This cannot be a lack of foresight on the programmers part, but built that way from the start just so such scams could be implemented and abused.

This is the same idiotic programming that ALWAYS sells to the lowest seller even when you actually purchased from a different vender for slightly more, then gives the higher isk price to the lowest seller...

Please tell me how buying a hammer from the hardware store for $10, will sell me a hammer from Walmart because they are $2 less, and Walmart gets to have $10 for it because the hardware store had the nerve to charge more.

Who programed that garbage?


So in short, buy orders that can't be filled should be deactivated once they error out for lack of funds, in other words... the logical thing that should have been programed in from the start.
Kara Roideater
#12 - 2013-11-22 23:37:18 UTC
Vamprina Maximus wrote:
I can only conclude the current margin trading scams were put in by design... There is no logical reason whatsoever a buy order with no actual money to back it up, should stay active on the market when it fails to deliver to a seller.

Yet it does..

This cannot be a lack of foresight on the programmers part, but built that way from the start just so such scams could be implemented and abused.

This is the same idiotic programming that ALWAYS sells to the lowest seller even when you actually purchased from a different vender for slightly more, then gives the higher isk price to the lowest seller...

Please tell me how buying a hammer from the hardware store for $10, will sell me a hammer from Walmart because they are $2 less, and Walmart gets to have $10 for it because the hardware store had the nerve to charge more.

Who programed that garbage?


So in short, buy orders that can't be filled should be deactivated once they error out for lack of funds, in other words... the logical thing that should have been programed in from the start.


i have to ask ... are you pissed off about that 300mil you gifted me earlier? I couldn't work out what the hell you were doing selling ships to me and then buying them back for 50mil more ... then selling them to me again! And then buying them back again! Were you trying to sell to that overpriced order above me with the minimum buy of 37 units?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#13 - 2013-11-22 23:45:30 UTC
Vamprina Maximus wrote:
I
This is the same idiotic programming that ALWAYS sells to the lowest seller even when you actually purchased from a different vender for slightly more, then gives the higher isk price to the lowest seller...

Please tell me how buying a hammer from the hardware store for $10, will sell me a hammer from Walmart because they are $2 less, and Walmart gets to have $10 for it because the hardware store had the nerve to charge more.

Who programed that garbage?
t.



This is how it works...

"Hi, Thank you for calling your friendly neighbourhood broker, what can I do for you today?"

"Yes, I would like to buy a hammer. I want to spend $10 on it, can you make that happen?"

"Sure."

*Broker toodles off to the local market*

"Hi, I want to spend $10 on a hammer"

Vendor: "sure. Here you go buddy, enjoy!"

*Broker toodles back to you*

"Hi, here is your hammer."

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Aryan Kerrigan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-11-22 23:47:51 UTC
This thread quickly became amusing.
Vamprina Maximus
Equity Nuclear
#15 - 2013-11-23 00:19:51 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Vamprina Maximus wrote:
I
This is the same idiotic programming that ALWAYS sells to the lowest seller even when you actually purchased from a different vender for slightly more, then gives the higher isk price to the lowest seller...

Please tell me how buying a hammer from the hardware store for $10, will sell me a hammer from Walmart because they are $2 less, and Walmart gets to have $10 for it because the hardware store had the nerve to charge more.

Who programed that garbage?
t.



This is how it works...

"Hi, Thank you for calling your friendly neighbourhood broker, what can I do for you today?"

"Yes, I would like to buy a hammer. I want to spend $10 on it, can you make that happen?"

"Sure."

*Broker toodles off to the local market*

"Hi, I want to spend $10 on a hammer"

Vendor: "sure. Here you go buddy, enjoy!"

*Broker toodles back to you*

"Hi, here is your hammer."



There is no broker involved in directly buying an item...

If my broker for hammers gave my sale to Walmart his ass would be fired.
Vamprina Maximus
Equity Nuclear
#16 - 2013-11-23 00:33:47 UTC
Kara Roideater wrote:


i have to ask ... are you pissed off about that 300mil you gifted me earlier? I couldn't work out what the hell you were doing selling ships to me and then buying them back for 50mil more ... then selling them to me again! And then buying them back again! Were you trying to sell to that overpriced order above me with the minimum buy of 37 units?


I guess that was learning experience, as had never known about minimum buy orders before. I've only been playing about 2 months. But it does show what a **** poor system it is to a new player. I can imagine great numbers of people quiting this game because of the hidden, nonsensical market garbage that can wipe out a players bank with a click.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#17 - 2013-11-23 00:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
Vamprina Maximus wrote:



There is no broker involved in directly buying an item...

If my broker for hammers gave my sale to Walmart his ass would be fired.



https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Market_guide#Brokerage_System

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#18 - 2013-11-23 00:38:50 UTC
Vamprina Maximus wrote:


I guess that was learning experience, as had never known about minimum buy orders before. I've only been playing about 2 months. But it does show what a **** poor system it is to a new player. I can imagine great numbers of people quiting this game because of the hidden, nonsensical market garbage that can wipe out a players bank with a click.


There have been requests in the suggestion thread for market stuff to be added to the new player tutorials.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

SJ Astralana
Syncore
#19 - 2013-11-23 01:01:07 UTC
Here's my take on the current scam.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3913152#post3913152

What I can't quite get my head around is why isn't it possible to do the same thing with single items? Post an overpriced sell order, a buy order of 1 above the real value, and no cash to back it.

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#20 - 2013-11-23 01:14:37 UTC
This topic is being discussed in the Features and Ideas forum. Therefore this thread is locked.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

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