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Slavery, Blessing or curse: The account of an Amarrian who truly cares for those under his charge.

First post
Author
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2013-11-22 16:04:25 UTC
While I applaud the efforts and integrity of those like Pilots Draconis and Barraca to put a more humane face on the abhorrent institution of slavery I must again take issue with the institution.

Slavery, no matter whether practiced by a moral holder or an Angel Cartel thug, strips away a person's most fundamental right of self-determination, subjugating them to the arbitrary whims of another. The slave has no rights, no means to address wrongs, there are no laws to protect the slave as in the eyes of the law the slave is merely property. It's certainly not illegal or immoral for me to abuse or destroy a starship that I purchased legally is it?

This is my main argument against slavery. However, if people wish to voluntarily and knowingly subject themselves to this life after being converted by Amarrian evangelicals, I'd have much less of a problem with it. However, slaves are never given the choice.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-11-22 16:24:32 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
While I applaud the efforts and integrity of those like Pilots Draconis and Barraca to put a more humane face on the abhorrent institution of slavery I must again take issue with the institution.

Slavery, no matter whether practiced by a moral holder or an Angel Cartel thug, strips away a person's most fundamental right of self-determination, subjugating them to the arbitrary whims of another. The slave has no rights, no means to address wrongs, there are no laws to protect the slave as in the eyes of the law the slave is merely property. It's certainly not illegal or immoral for me to abuse or destroy a starship that I purchased legally is it?

This is my main argument against slavery. However, if people wish to voluntarily and knowingly subject themselves to this life after being converted by Amarrian evangelicals, I'd have much less of a problem with it. However, slaves are never given the choice.


It's largely a semantic difference, though, Bella. Civilization is based around giving up some amount of freedom in the interest of the larger common good. Even we free Amarrians are living lives you would probably consider to be abhorrently authoritarian. The problem is that the more "free" a society is, the more "anarchic" it becomes. I've known my entire life what I would be doing with it, and I've been prepared for ministry since I was old enough to read and understand Scripture. Most Matari I speak to find that idea disgusting, knowing that my entire family were being prepared for careers for their entire lives. However, I find the idea comforting. I know that I've been trained for my entire life to be a minister and I've never had to wonder "what if." Given that, I think it's a bit easier to understand how slavery fits into the puzzle.

I think the problem is that there is too much freedom, ironically, up at the top with the Holder class. It is no surprise that the fault in slavery, as in any system, is right where people have the most authority for self-determination. There should be a regulation on what a slave needs to accomplish to get out of the institution and on the behavior of Holders to keep them from being abusive. Even one Holder failing to uphold his position and role in society is too many.

I've also lived in foreign space long enough to understand where people are coming from. The idea of simply dragging people into slavery in wars of conquest seems like a power we can't be completely trusted with. People who attack the empire and are captured? Criminals subverting the system? People who've obviously fallen into debt due to poor preparedness for life? These people need the system. Merchants who would be good citizens wherever they are? Citizens who would become believers if simply ministered to? The institute of slavery shouldn't be meant for those people. I think we've had a rather interesting discussion develop about the children of slaves, and if they should be taken from their parents in order to be raised free. It's also been raised that, if not, every child born everywhere should be born into slavery and then earn freedom.

It's one of those conversations, about whether freedom is an inherent condition to be lost, or whether citizenship is a privilege to be earned. I think it's the racial aspect that is fading most rapidly.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Blaise Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-11-22 17:16:07 UTC
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
Naomi Tichim wrote:
I wish I had been fortunate enough to have a master half as good as you are.


Thank you Naomi. I really appreciate that. I truly try. My heart is pained by what you had to go through.


I agree with Naomi, had my parents had a caretaker such as yourself, who cared for those under his charge we would be part of the Empire still. I commend you for following the true spirit of your Faith. I believe that God smiles upon those who are a paragon of what Faith is. I am sure that your charges are grateful for your guidance, and I am grateful that you share your personal experience as an example of what a Holder should be.

Blaise Cadelanne

They bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla! Where the brave may live forever!”

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-11-22 17:53:23 UTC
It's the condescension that I dislike. Even when they're the "nice" kind of slaver, you get the impression that the attitude is still "they're wayward souls! It's all for their own good, the poor misguided things." et cetera. There's no respect involved, not by any definition of the word that I recognise as valid.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Blaise Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-11-22 19:05:08 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
It's the condescension that I dislike. Even when they're the "nice" kind of slaver, you get the impression that the attitude is still "they're wayward souls! It's all for their own good, the poor misguided things." et cetera. There's no respect involved, not by any definition of the word that I recognise as valid.


I can see your point. There is less allowance for self-determination, and freedoms in the Amarrian slave/master relationship. This can lead to abuse of power by the Holder. Amarr Scripture teaches that those who are slaves, are indeed lost souls, and this may or may not be true, but the slave is not usually given a choice in the matter. This leads to the contention we have now. Those who need guidance should be able to volunteer themselves, but that is a choice the person in question should make for themselves.

Blaise Cadelanne

They bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla! Where the brave may live forever!”

Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-11-22 19:14:05 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
The easy answer to all of that is that we're not just a slave nation, but a rather authoritarian one as well. Personal freedom invariably leads to a large portion of the impoverished population contracting problems such as drug use, gang warfare, and violent upheaval. The things that plague the lower classes of all other empires are much less of a problem in Amarrian space. If you commit a serious crime here, you are likely to be indentured rather than imprisoned. You are not kept near the people who would have been your gang affiliates, as your master is likely to move you to a completely new place. You do not have the chance to re-create those pressures because your master has an interest in keeping you in line.

Contrast that to what happens to prisoners of war, criminals, and impoverished debtors in other parts of the cluster. It may not seem very humane if you've learned, all your life, that it's wrong no matter what. However, if you've grown up with it, then traveled to other empires and seen the institutions that replace it elsewhere, you don't have that opinion. Imagine what we think of taking all of your criminals, sticking them in a cage with very little to do besides scheme and stew, and essentially create a university of serious criminal activity. And then stick them with the convict label for a few years to make sure that the only jobs they have when they get out are low-rent, menial affairs that they worry, everyday, that they'll lose or will not receive enough money from to even cover their rent.

Given that, I wouldn't necessarily say slaves are any less free than poor folk the cluster over. In my travels, I'm sorry to say that freedom is very often an illusion; you're free to do precisely what you're told and hope you aren't punished for some minor transgression by losing your job or freedom for years. Capsuleers can be egalitarian about it, but the slave system provides those who are in trouble with food, shelter, and someone whose logical interest should be in generating an Amarrian from a slave who can return his investment with hard work. It's a rehabilitation program, essentially begun as a humane alternative for prisoners of war millenia ago and continued today. When the practice is working correctly, which in the majority of cases it does, we generate civil Amarrians who appreciate the value of freedom and citizenship. When it doesn't, those Holders can find themselves in bondage just the same as their charges were.

There is a reason we very rarely execute soldiers we capture in battle or lock them in giant prison camps. There is also a reason that our prison system is so relatively small. While slavery is a dirty word elsewhere and carries certain stigmas, that's simply not the case in the Amarr Empire. I would say that, before you wonder how we could not accept your point of view on the system, imagine how Amarrians look at your own system and cringe. I mean, say what you want about the slave system, it's infinitely more logical than the prison system.


Thank you Constantin Baracca, I was not sure how to explain that. If I were to free them and employ them as employees, rather than the way I currently am, they would gain certain responsibilities from the state that they are not ready for, and would negate certain privileges that I can provide for them currently. As I am legally owning them, this protects them from society, allowing for a safe learning environment for them to be in until they are ready.

Also, because I live in Khanid, if they were to be set free, and if they made the unwise decision to leave without being prepared(as some slaves have), then they would face much persecution in the Khanid kingdom simply because of who they are. They would be on their own, and it would be no longer my responsibility or my right to help them. I am not going to turn them "loose", until I can be sure they are ready. As I said before, I am interested in building a small university on my land to help achieve this goal.

Also, by my legal ownership, anyone who harms them is legally entitled to feel my wrath as I see fit. Again, protecting them.

What many outsiders fail to understand is the cultural responsibility of a Holder to take care of their slaves, as well as the lack of, or rather, inhibition, for them to associate with them. I have spoken to many of my slaves on this topic, and have even allowed them access to my library. Most of them have come to the conclusion that what I am doing is helpful(and no, I did not guide their research. My library is quite extensive). I say most because I have freed some of my slaves because they wanted it, and after they took matters into their own hands, they became very impoverished.

When one has freedom, one wishes to exploit it. By legally owning them, I am protecting them from this mindset until they are actually able to succeed. Again, why I am interested in building a university.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2013-11-22 19:14:53 UTC
Blaise Cadelanne wrote:
Vulxanis Viceroy wrote:
Naomi Tichim wrote:
I wish I had been fortunate enough to have a master half as good as you are.


Thank you Naomi. I really appreciate that. I truly try. My heart is pained by what you had to go through.


I agree with Naomi, had my parents had a caretaker such as yourself, who cared for those under his charge we would be part of the Empire still. I commend you for following the true spirit of your Faith. I believe that God smiles upon those who are a paragon of what Faith is. I am sure that your charges are grateful for your guidance, and I am grateful that you share your personal experience as an example of what a Holder should be.


Thank you Blaise. I appreciate that.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2013-11-22 19:18:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
It's the condescension that I dislike. Even when they're the "nice" kind of slaver, you get the impression that the attitude is still "they're wayward souls! It's all for their own good, the poor misguided things." et cetera. There's no respect involved, not by any definition of the word that I recognise as valid.


You fail to understand. I am not only coming from a religious point of view, but a practical one as well. I have seen slaves ruin their lives without proper guidance. They are no different than any wayward youth that wishes to prove themselves, only to find that they were unprepared. And because I respect them as human beings, I do my best to provide for them. They are not social equals, and they cannot ever be. But that doesn't mean I should treat them with contempt, nor treat them like animals.

I am not a slaver. I am a Holder. They are two different things.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2013-11-22 19:22:33 UTC
Blaise Cadelanne wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
It's the condescension that I dislike. Even when they're the "nice" kind of slaver, you get the impression that the attitude is still "they're wayward souls! It's all for their own good, the poor misguided things." et cetera. There's no respect involved, not by any definition of the word that I recognise as valid.


I can see your point. There is less allowance for self-determination, and freedoms in the Amarrian slave/master relationship. This can lead to abuse of power by the Holder. Amarr Scripture teaches that those who are slaves, are indeed lost souls, and this may or may not be true, but the slave is not usually given a choice in the matter. This leads to the contention we have now. Those who need guidance should be able to volunteer themselves, but that is a choice the person in question should make for themselves.


And I did give them a choice, after having a rather heated discussion with a Minmatar capsuleer. They collectively decided that currently, their situation is positive and they want to work their way towards freedom. The only difference between them being slaves and them being servants is that they have legal protection as my property. Whereas an employee will not gain as much legal support by their boss, no matter how much they wish to give. And no, I had no influence on their decision. I brought in a few CONCORD lawyers to help mediate. They used logical reasoning to come to their decision.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2013-11-22 19:35:39 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
While I applaud the efforts and integrity of those like Pilots Draconis and Barraca to put a more humane face on the abhorrent institution of slavery I must again take issue with the institution.

Slavery, no matter whether practiced by a moral holder or an Angel Cartel thug, strips away a person's most fundamental right of self-determination, subjugating them to the arbitrary whims of another. The slave has no rights, no means to address wrongs, there are no laws to protect the slave as in the eyes of the law the slave is merely property. It's certainly not illegal or immoral for me to abuse or destroy a starship that I purchased legally is it?

This is my main argument against slavery. However, if people wish to voluntarily and knowingly subject themselves to this life after being converted by Amarrian evangelicals, I'd have much less of a problem with it. However, slaves are never given the choice.


I understand your reservations. And I would like to remind you I never bought a single slave. I do have the power to free them, and as previously stated, I gave them the opportunity. They currently have chosen to remain under my authority because of how I have treated them.

I do not see them as property, rather more of children. They are hilariously uneducated, unprepared, and ignorant of the world.
They also interact with those legally in my employment, and they have found that in some ways, they are better off currently. Now, this does not mean they do not wish to be free, as many of them will become so eventually. I simply see it as my duty to prepare them for that day.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2013-11-22 23:12:43 UTC
Rella and Hakatain-haan effectively raise what I would consider my aforementioned, but undefined before now, moral views on slavery. Just to clarify. My own existence started as an indentured agreement that effectively read; "Property of Kaalakiota" before I bought out my own contract (The influence of being a capsuleer... So nice), so I've never been too keen on the idea of ownership. One could argue that it wasn't legally slavery... And they'd be right, technically, since slavery is illegal in the State, and the contract was perfectly legal in its wording... But read a copy of this thing, and it becomes hard to tell the difference.

Don't get up in arms at me over the mention, by the way. I won't claim the experiences were the same, or even similar, but the fundamental sense of being property did stick with me, and colors my views on the matter.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Vulxanis Viceroy
Vicarius Vitae
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2013-11-22 23:16:31 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Rella and Hakatain-haan effectively raise what I would consider my aforementioned, but undefined before now, moral views on slavery. Just to clarify. My own existence started as an indentured agreement that effectively read; "Property of Kaalakiota" before I bought out my own contract (The influence of being a capsuleer... So nice), so I've never been too keen on the idea of ownership. One could argue that it wasn't legally slavery... And they'd be right, technically, since slavery is illegal in the State, and the contract was perfectly legal in its wording... But read a copy of this thing, and it becomes hard to tell the difference.

Don't get up in arms at me over the mention, by the way. I won't claim the experiences were the same, or even similar, but the fundamental sense of being property did stick with me, and colors my views on the matter.


I understand, and if you wish to ask me more about my personal experiences regarding the matter, feel free to send me a mail or open a channel when I am available.

However, the fact of the matter is, slavery exists. Whether you like it or not. I am simply in the position of making their existence better by protecting and guiding them, as is my duty. Because it exists, I feel that it is necessary for me to do something about it. Thus why I have done what I have done.

In Character: Only responds to "Lord Draconis"

Pronounced "Vulzanis"

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Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2013-11-23 01:06:37 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Rella and Hakatain-haan effectively raise what I would consider my aforementioned, but undefined before now, moral views on slavery.


Both Cpt. Rella's and Cpt. Hakatain's views on slavery in the Empire rise from being uneducated about what that really means which borders on wilful ignorance.

For example Cpt. Realla claims that "The slave has no rights, no means to address wrongs, there are no laws to protect the slave as in the eyes of the law the slave is merely property. It's certainly not illegal or immoral for me to abuse or destroy a starship that I purchased legally is it?"

So, there is a simple answer to it: Of course it is immoral to abuse a starship that she legally purchased. The question is what qualifies as abuse. Is it immoral to destroy it? Not if no one is on board. If she's self destructing it while there are innocent people on board then of course it is morally wrong and against the law and she is not at liberty to do so, even though it is her ship. The idea that simply because something is property there are no laws that regulate what is allowed to be done with said property and what not is simply ludicrous and something that not even is the case in the Republic.

For example in all civilized Nations there are laws in place that regulate the ways in which we may use guns. Nowhere civilized is it allowed to run onto the street and shoot people over, because we own a gun. thus abuse of property is usually regulated and outlawed. If we talk about living beings, there are usually laws in place that protect those living beings, that can be property. Many member states of the Federation for example outlaw needles cruelty to animals, even - and especially so - if they are owned as property.

The idea that something can't be protected by laws and that the way we use or abuse property we have can't be regulated by law or outright outlawed is thus really something that only the most barbaric of people can think of and really mean it.

De facto as slave in the Empire has rights (even though they are usually formulated as obligations, duties and responsibilities of the Holder), there are means to address if they are wronged and there are laws to protect the slave, regardless of it being property in the eyes of the law.

The problem of Cpt. Rella is - and that's why she's denying these facts - that if she would accept those things as they are, she'd be forced to make concessions and stop her baseless fundamental critique of slavery in the Empire and would have to debate rather the implementation of those laws, rights etc. and how well these are done. That's something she doesn't appear to be prepared to do.

Therefore I think her wilful ignorance of the rights a slave has in the Empire and her unfounded claim that one can do with property as the owner likes. I think she's not as uncivilized to seriously make those abject claims: It's polemics.

The same goes for Cpt. Stitchers claim of 'condescension'. I'm quite sure all parents send their children to school and if they don't want to go make them anyway, thinking something along the lines of his "they're wayward souls! It's all for their own good, the poor misguided things." Whether this is condescension or honest concern is certainly up to debate, but I don't think that Cpt. Stiticher has any real basis to claim that the latter is true in the case of all Holders. The same goes for treatment of prisoners. I'm quite sure they aren't free to do as they want in any civilized society. So, given his argument imprisonment should be abolished, all criminals should be free to decide whether they want to go through re-education.

Of course, not all slaves in Amarr are penal slaves - but if Cpt. Stitcher would acknowledge that some are he would be likewise forced to make concessions: He'd have to question in which cases his 'condescension' is justified and in which not. So he couldn't go on with his fundamental critique of slavery either if he recognized the realities of Amarr penal slavery.

This is not saying that their concerns might not be valid for some forms of slavery in the Empire, but if one wants to uphold them reasonably and not just out of ideological blindness and dogmatism, one has to be prepared to single those forms of slavery out on which they actually do apply.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-11-23 01:26:33 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Rella and Hakatain-haan effectively raise what I would consider my aforementioned, but undefined before now, moral views on slavery. Just to clarify. My own existence started as an indentured agreement that effectively read; "Property of Kaalakiota" before I bought out my own contract (The influence of being a capsuleer... So nice), so I've never been too keen on the idea of ownership. One could argue that it wasn't legally slavery... And they'd be right, technically, since slavery is illegal in the State, and the contract was perfectly legal in its wording... But read a copy of this thing, and it becomes hard to tell the difference.

Don't get up in arms at me over the mention, by the way. I won't claim the experiences were the same, or even similar, but the fundamental sense of being property did stick with me, and colors my views on the matter.


As is the case for all citizens of the Caldari State. The difference ultimately lies in enfranchisement, and ownership.

To address the latter first, the critical difference between a Megacorporation and a Holder is that a Megacorporation is not a person. I was, in that same sense the property of Ishukone - indeed, when I quit Watch SWAT and moved into the Medical Support Corps, many of my augmentations were repossessed, which was an intimate and invasive experience that I count myself fortunate to have been unconscious for during the weeks it took to culture and transplant their replacements.

But ultimately, Ishukone is not a person. It has no agenda, it has a course, charted and piloted by the Board of Directors and senior executives. I belonged to Ishukone in much the same way that my crewmen belong to my ships - that is where they work, that is the structure in which they are embedded. They belong to it, but the ship does not own them because ships cannot own anything - ownership is legally only possible by persons.

A Megacorporation, being a syndicate of persons, is capable of owning property, but that property belongs to everybody involved. I belonged to Ishukone, as did every other Ishukone citizen - and with all of us being a part of that same structure as much as any of them owned me, I owned them to an equal degree. The relationship was a balanced one.

A holder/slave relationship is an inherently unbalanced one. The slave is owned, the holder owns. There is no reciprocation, no balance of equal involvement. One is the master, one is the slave, end of discussion.

+

Then, we have enfranchisement. I was involved in my corporation and its course. In theory, the chain of command stretched unbroken between me and Les Akkilen himself. I was a member of a few shareholder syndicates, I could have put myself on the executive track, or climbed the ranks in the Watch... The point is, from where I began my life wailing and premature in the sickbay of a deep space mineral survey vessel, I could in theory have made it to anywhere in the Ishukone structure on the back of my own merit and accomplishments.

Where can an Amarrian slave go? They might be granted their freedom by their holder, and that outcome might even be called "earning" their freedom, save for the crucial difference that earning something is an objective accomplishment - you acquire the resources to do that thing, and you do it yourself. Freedom from slavery is granted, or bestowed by a gracious Holder, in gratitude for the slave's years of loyal service, with an appropriate stipend of course.

Alternatively, they might be emancipated by some resistance group or fighters or if they're clever, resourceful and lucky they may even emancipate themselves, but where then?

Slaves are disenfranchised. Their options for self advancement as a slave are limited to remaining a slave, albeit of a slightly higher and more trusted rank, or escape and life as an outlaw. Preferable, possibly, but not enfranchised in the culture they left behind. In order to even have a shot at advancement and acceptance inside the social order beyond the life of slavers, they must rely on the condescending benefactions of their owner. Their mobility is curtailed, their involvement in the decision-making process amounts to little more than speaking sense in the hope that their master heeds it

It is not enfranchisement if you are ultimately dependent upon the reason and grace of an individual person whose only claim to authority over you is that they could afford to buy you or your parents, whereas a megacorp CEO had to earn that position.

Besides: when a slave rejects their slavery, they are whipped, or maybe executed. When a citizen rejects their citizenship, they are merely forgotten.

The difference between slavery and corporate indenture may seem at-times subtle almost to the point of being academic, but so too is the difference between an orange and a lemon: it's when you bite into those fruits you find out exactly why the difference is important.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-11-23 02:04:41 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
[quote=Saya Ishikari]Where can an Amarrian slave go? They might be granted their freedom by their holder, and that outcome might even be called "earning" their freedom, save for the crucial difference that earning something is an objective accomplishment - you acquire the resources to do that thing, and you do it yourself. Freedom from slavery is granted, or bestowed by a gracious Holder, in gratitude for the slave's years of loyal service, with an appropriate stipend of course.


Again, Cpt. Hakatain is not only misinformed but doesn't even strive to inform himself but keeps on misinforming: A slave is not to be freed out of gratitude for the slave's years of loyal service, but when he learned to live as a free citizen of Amarr. Years of loyal service are of course an indicator for that, but they aren't the reason. And just as in other nations you have an influence on whether you get naturalized or are rehabilitated from being a criminal, you do have so as a slave in the Empire.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-11-23 02:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
and once again, Cpt. Mithra misinterprets me in accordance with her biases rather than my meaning. The object was not to give a literal example of a reason why a slave might be freed, but to mock what I understand rather more clearly than she does - that slavery is an inherently arrogant institution, even though many holders buy their own lie about it being corrective.

Slaves are informed that they are sick and incarcerated to make them well, of an ailment that cannot even be proven to exist. The hubris of it all never fails to make me marvel.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2013-11-23 04:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
So, then imprisonment for crimes in the State is also inherently arrogant? Because the criminal entering prison for re-education is being imprisoned and re-educated in the State for the exact same reasons as most slaves that are entering freshly into that condition nowadays in the Empire. Or can the ailment e proven to exist in the State, but not in the Empire for some miraculous reasons?

If so - and it appears there is little room left for you to say otherwise - clean your own house first, before you complain about other's.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#38 - 2013-11-23 04:26:59 UTC
Yes, let's pretend the institution of slavery in the Empire isn't at all a religiously justified pile of... well. It's definitely comparable to a department of corrections based entirely on law and order. Yup. No differences at all, really.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2013-11-23 04:34:46 UTC
Cpt. Otsitso, your show of a level of ignorance that is so much greater than Cpt. Hakatain's is astounding.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#40 - 2013-11-23 04:40:57 UTC
That's Satrapess Otsito, thankyouverymuch. Well, technically a lot more than Satrapess but you have to be gracious sometimes. There was also something about paper birds. Cpt is a rank for other walks of life.

Your ignorance on such matters is rather astounding. Or would pointing that out simply be pointless denial with no actual argument offered?

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.