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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Anomaly One
Doomheim
#141 - 2013-11-22 14:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
The issue here is information to players not the skill itself..

Quote:
ALL buy orders are NOT GUARANTEED


Simple, have aura instruct newbies in this, a market tutorial is needed anyway.
Also if you want another solution, add a "MARKET STANDING" for each character, based on how many fail orders etc. then everyone has more information available.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#142 - 2013-11-22 14:29:49 UTC
Florian Bao wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!




yes, please pay more attention to market and industry optimization

yes, please pay less attention to ship balance
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
#143 - 2013-11-22 14:35:46 UTC
Barmy Failure wrote:
Don't know if this has been discussed allready but.

A simple solution might be "Do not to display buy orders that can't be fullfilled"


The problem with this suggestion is that it doesn't take into account that although a (legit) buy order might not be fulfilled at once, it still can be fulfilled over time. I "refuel" my wallet to cover my remaining buy orders by (re-)selling items I bought earlier on.

I admit that I don't have a proposal at the moment which wouldn't cripple legit usage of this skill (too much) and at the same time solves the problems CCP Rise addressed in the OP.

EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#144 - 2013-11-22 14:41:53 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
A player (Buyer) creates a buy order and with margin trading and puts 24% of the total buy order in escrow.

The other 74% isk does not come out of player's (Buyer) wallet, but the amount is marked against player's (Buyer) wallet.

Another player (Seller) sells said item against buy order and the player (Buyer) who created the order does not have the isk to fullfill it;

the player's (Buyer) wallet is deducted the isk amount which then becomes a negative amount.

the Player (Seller) receives isk for the item he sells at the buy order price.

I do not agree that a player can use the UI to scam someone. This mechanic needs to be fixed. So if you start to penalize the person who is trying to take advantage of this then it will stop.

The players who actually use this feature the proper way & for the reason it was implemented will not be affected.


Easily exploitable to create ISK out of thin air.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#145 - 2013-11-22 14:44:18 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Florian Bao wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!




yes, please pay more attention to market and industry optimization

yes, please pay less attention to ship balance


They're both worthwhile projects.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#146 - 2013-11-22 14:46:43 UTC
Hi, i thought i'd pitch in too.

I find it very hard to come up with anything that wouldn't possibly screw over a legitimate margin trade user in some case.

What I'd see as the best way to handle this is to educate people, have a sticky thread in market thread explaining the trading scam, advertice it a bit. Add margin scamming teaching to tutorials, and how to see through them. Most newer players do the tutorials, and having margin trading scam scheme explained there could educate people enough.

Bringing awereness to the issue is the easiest way to counter it, otherwise we might get legitimate traders marked, screwed or at worst, turn em off the market game.

So, educate people. It's a small exception that will easily stick to anyones brain, as long as they hear and understand it and how to see through it.
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#147 - 2013-11-22 14:47:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Florian Bao wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!




yes, please pay more attention to market and industry optimization

yes, please pay less attention to ship balance


They're both worthwhile projects.

I agree, I sincerely hope CCP Rise devotes himself to solving market related issues.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2013-11-22 14:57:04 UTC
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#149 - 2013-11-22 15:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Most of what I'd like to say has already been said. Still, I'll repeat the main point.

All buy orders are only potential offers, not guarantees. Educate your players about this very simple fact rather than try to instil an (incorrect) sense of protection in them. The buy order you spotted may fall through by the time you click the "sell" button for a bajillion different reasons — inadequate wallet is just one of them, so why does it need any kind of special attention?

Margin trading is not a problem; players not understanding how to invest is, and no amount of change to the margin trading skill will solve that issue. I frankly don't see any need for mauling one of the most crucial tools a large-volume trader has at his disposal just to (fail to) “fix” the problem of people not researching their purchases.

The information needed not to fall for the scam is right there, on the market interface, so the notion that the interface is lying to the player is a false one. It is not lying any more than it does when it says there are 1bn units of trit available for 3 ISK, and when I try to buy them, I can't. If you feel that the information about the actual sales prices for items (as opposed to the sticker price) is too hidden away, then by all means, fix that, but don't try to break a skill to fix an unrelated problem because… well… you're not actually addressing the real problem.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#150 - 2013-11-22 15:15:08 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???


What about legit traders that sometimes have an order fail?

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#151 - 2013-11-22 15:19:45 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:

So, educate people. It's a small exception that will easily stick to anyones brain, as long as they hear and understand it and how to see through it.


I agree, especially as basically it needs to be only something regarding the minimum quantity...such as

[Please exercise extra caution when attempting to fill a buy order with a minimum quantity. Whilst some items (such as minerals, ore and ammunition) often have minimum buy order quantities, be aware that, especially with rare/unusual items, a minimum buy order quantity may indicate that the order is not able to be filled]

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#152 - 2013-11-22 15:27:48 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:

So, educate people. It's a small exception that will easily stick to anyones brain, as long as they hear and understand it and how to see through it.


I agree, especially as basically it needs to be only something regarding the minimum quantity...such as

[Please exercise extra caution when attempting to fill a buy order with a minimum quantity. Whilst some items (such as minerals, ore and ammunition) often have minimum buy order quantities, be aware that, especially with rare/unusual items, a minimum buy order quantity may indicate that the order is not able to be filled]


No need to get that specific.

[Please carefully read what you're buying, what you're selling and the specifics of the order you're setting up / trying to fulfill. Orders come with the same warranty as ships after undocking: none]

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Tatter Fox
Perkone
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-11-22 15:32:19 UTC
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???


I think this is a good idea. This would make it more exciting for traders when they know that they cant do anything for the next 40 days after failing to predict the outcome of a buy order
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#154 - 2013-11-22 15:37:36 UTC
Tatter Fox wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???

I think this is a good idea. This would make it more exciting for traders when they know that they cant do anything for the next 40 days after failing to predict the outcome of a buy order

So it doesn't actually solve anything and it makes traders want to use more alts.
Nah.
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#155 - 2013-11-22 15:38:00 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
X ATM092 wrote:
Florian Bao wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!


yes, please pay more attention to market and industry optimization

yes, please pay less attention to ship balance


They're both worthwhile projects.

I agree, I sincerely hope CCP Rise devotes himself to solving market related issues.


What is this market nonsense all about?

I thought EVE is a game about internet spaceships?!!!
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#156 - 2013-11-22 15:46:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tatter Fox wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???

I think this is a good idea. This would make it more exciting for traders when they know that they cant do anything for the next 40 days after failing to predict the outcome of a buy order

So it doesn't actually solve anything and it makes traders want to use more alts.
Nah.

So just degroup your orders or fly in a bigger blob of traders and it's basically the same.
Mysticus Maliotide
Suddenly Asteroids
#157 - 2013-11-22 15:53:20 UTC
X ATM092 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tatter Fox wrote:
Karah Serrigan wrote:
Margin buyorders should have a 40day reload time. If your order fails you cant put up buyorders with that character for 40 days. Should solve it, right? right???

I think this is a good idea. This would make it more exciting for traders when they know that they cant do anything for the next 40 days after failing to predict the outcome of a buy order

So it doesn't actually solve anything and it makes traders want to use more alts.
Nah.

So just degroup your orders or fly in a bigger blob of traders and it's basically the same.


The 40 day downtime will surely generate new and exciting emergent gameplay with these orders. I really think it will cause traders to REALLY consider if they want to place the buy order or not.
LittleTerror
Stygian Systems
#158 - 2013-11-22 15:57:20 UTC
The market interface is not lying to anyone, if they had checked the price history they wouldn't be so bloody stupid...

Not in favour of any change to margin skill, if people get scammed because they didn't do the research, they should deal with it.

However I do have an idea to make the market order screen a bit more clear, add a new column which shows the deviation from the average price over 5 days to help players make their judgement, or at least prompt them to look at the price history graph.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#159 - 2013-11-22 16:04:41 UTC
LittleTerror wrote:
The market interface is not lying to anyone, if they had checked the price history they wouldn't be so bloody stupid...


LMAO encouraging EVE players not to be stupid Roll

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Valterra Craven
#160 - 2013-11-22 16:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Meh, removed cused I didn't think about this long enough.