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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-11-22 11:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Koban Agalder
Solution might not be so difficult.

Create new special wallet division for every player named "Broker Guaranteed Escrow" (or something like that).

Now when a buy order is created the player transfer ISK to this special wallet division (which he has no direct aceess to except seeing how much ISK is there, he cannot easily transfer money back to his main wallet). The amount of ISK transfered is equal to minimal buy amount*buy price. So it is guaranteed that at least one iteam will be bought.

Now. In case of several buy orders only the most expensive is taken in account. If you have 10 different buy orders for 10 different types of iteams which have the same price and minimal buy amount the money transfered to new "BGE" is equal to minimal buy of one of this contract.

Now you do not have to constat monitor ever wallet, and every money transfer. If someone want to fullfill buy order money is taken directly from seller wallet (so "BGE" is used as last resort as a source of money). If the money has to be taken from "BGE" (no liquid ISK in wallet), then check is made if there is enough ISK to cover minimal buy amount*price, if not cancel most expensive order. Repeat untill "BGE" ISK is greater or there are no other orders.

Pluses:
-No need to constant monitor of someone wallet (you cannot constantly monitor someone's deductions and check his buy orders). Money is locked at the moment of creating order, and after every attempt to fill the order. Less calculations!
- No have only part of the ISK "locked" in "BGE". If you your isk back from "BGE" just cancel buy orders (starting from most expensive one).

Bonus:
In case of cancelling buy orders becouse "BGE" is not sufficient you many with help of CCP Karkour (sory for mispellinng!) cancel them and mark them as "suspended" so player if he/she wishes may easily get more liquid ISK, transfer and then "reaplly" the orders (less click to redo the suspended orders), of course he/she must have enought ISK to cover minimal amount*price, said ISK will be imidietly transfered to "BGE"

Do I get cookie?

Or should I write it as a story for agile programming?

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#122 - 2013-11-22 11:41:50 UTC
Weird. I recall a thread that dealt with this a couple months ago. And iirc (which I always do) a CCP blue bars pretty firmly stated that it was the victim's fault for being greedy. (And she shouldn't have been wearing those kind of clothes in that part of town anyway! She was practically asking for it to happen! - CCP quote. Tru story!) Wonder what happened to make CCP change their tune? Enough ragequit un-subs finally got their attention?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#123 - 2013-11-22 11:45:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I have mixed thoughts on this:

The Margin Trading Scam: The only way the scammer makes any isk at all from a Margin Trade Scam is if they trick a person to purchase overpriced goods directly from them. Any player that actually investigates teh value of the product they are buying won't fall for margin trade scams:

--- Price history gives a solid indication of how much an item has been selling for.
--- Sales Volume History gives a solid indication of how rapidly an item moves.

Both of these tell you the volatility of an item, which moreless represents the risk associated with buying an item to resell for profit. A trader willingly assumes this risk when they purchase an item.

IMO, you do not need to change the margin trade skill at all. Instead, CCP needs to make this pointt CRYSTAL CLEAR:

Quote:
ALL buy orders are NOT GUARANTEED.


It is that simple.... Put it right on the market interface....

This. If any change is needed this is all.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Barmy Failure
Astromechanica Maxima
#124 - 2013-11-22 11:50:38 UTC
Don't know if this has been discussed allready but.

A simple solution might be "Do not to display buy orders that can't be fullfilled"

Implementing that might not be easy, I can't think of a way of doing it without increasing the server load but maybe someone can.
Wafflehead
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-11-22 11:59:36 UTC
No change is required. The market is accurate and the skill is useful.

Are we going to do something about 'Sorry the order cannot be found' cause someone bought it before you??. No we are not cause its stupid.

Stupid people fall for these scams, why should be change everything to compensate for stupidity?
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#126 - 2013-11-22 12:05:42 UTC
This is seriously the only suggestion/feedback on an idea thread I've seen here in a long time that's actually had sensible people reply to them. Kudo's to all you EVE players.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#127 - 2013-11-22 12:09:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!

Lot of great feedback here so far. I'll make sure the rest of my team reads this (and whatever gets added over the next few days) and then we'll discuss where to go from here.

Thanks <3


If any change should be made to the market its the simple things.
Being able to remove your orders by right clicking it (instead of from Orders)
Being able to modify the order amount from Orders and the market screen
Being able to modify other aspects aswel (range, time, etc)
Being able to specify minimum sell amount (BULK DISCOUNT GET YOUR BULK DISCOUNT)

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2013-11-22 12:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Actually the problem with the skill margin trading and how escrow works is even bigger. I don't know if everybody including the devs know how exactly the escrow works so i will explain it in detail. If you don't believe it test yourself.

How escrow works !
Escrow is item tied, that means you put up a buy order for item A, x% of your ISK in wallet will be transfered to escrow. This ISK are tied to item A and only item A.

Example (with 30% goes into escrow)
Item A with 10x1m buy order worth 10m > 3m goes into escrow
Item B with 40x10m buy order worth 400m > 120m goes into escrow

Your escrow balance is 123m. Now you clean out your wallet to zero. Lets see what happens if the buy order for Item A will be filled step by step.
1. Item A was sold to the buy order for 3x times = 3m and 7 out of 10 buys remain. The escrow for item A is now ZERO but your overall escrow is at 120m.
2. Someone is attempting to sell one more item A = 1m, although your overall escrow shows 120m this order will fail as the escrow for item A is ZERO and your wallet is at zero too.

The escrow is strictly tied to the buy order for item A, if the escrow for item A is exhausted and only then EVE is extracting the amount of ISK to cover the transaction from your wallet.
To stop setups for multiple buy orders designed to fail the escrow tied to any specific item has to be deleted. Of course this won't prevent the one buy order designed to fail, this will still work after changing this specific mechanic.

I have no idea how to change the escrow/wallet mechanic but any suggestion to change the margin trading skill has to consider how the current escrow/wallet mechanic works and should suggest how it should work in the future.


Edit:
The mechanic i described works for any number of buy orders. Depending of what you want to acomplish with the designed to fail buy orders you have several ways to setup them up, like in the example you can allow the buy order to buy 3 Items A before it fails or you can sell the 3 items A to yourself. Then cover the remaining with an extra buy order for only one item A and let others to overbid you and delete the cover order later. This will work exceptionally well if you have high priced items in the range of 3digit millions and want to push the buy order to a new limit.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#129 - 2013-11-22 12:56:18 UTC
I gave up on reading all the ideas, but had one to share:

Give marketeers a right-click option on buy orders to run a check on a given order and see if the buyer has enough isk to cover the order or if it will fail.

You could charge a fee for this "service" even and turn it into a minor isk sink.

Buyer beware, but give them a tool to use to detect the scam.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#130 - 2013-11-22 12:58:12 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Actually the problem with the skill margin trading and how escrow works is even bigger. I don't know if everybody including the devs know how exactly the escrow works so i will explain it in detail. If you don't believe it test yourself.

How escrow works !
Escrow is item tied, that means you put up a buy order for item A, x% of your ISK in wallet will be transfered to escrow. This ISK are tied to item A and only item A.

Example (with 30% goes into escrow)
Item A with 10x1m buy order worth 10m > 3m goes into escrow
Item B with 40x10m buy order worth 400m > 120m goes into escrow

Your escrow balance is 123m. Now you clean out your wallet to zero. Lets see what happens if the buy order for Item A will be filled step by step.
1. Item A was sold to the buy order for 3x times = 3m and 7 out of 10 buys remain. The escrow for item A is now ZERO but your overall escrow is at 120m.
2. Someone is attempting to sell one more item A = 1m, although your overall escrow shows 120m this order will fail as the escrow for item A is ZERO and your wallet is at zero too.

The escrow is strictly tied to the buy order for item A, if the escrow for item A is exhausted and only then EVE is extracting the amount of ISK to cover the transaction from your wallet.
To stop setups for multiple buy orders designed to fail the escrow tied to any specific item has to be deleted. Of course this won't prevent the one buy orders designed to fail, this will still work after changing this specific mechanic.

I have no idea how to change the escrow/wallet mechanic but any suggestion to change the margin trading skill has to consider how the current escrow/wallet mechanic works and should suggest how it should work in the future.




I believe in not just stating everything is broken first. That's a common problem here on F&I: "CCP FIX THIS", "CCP THIS IS BROKEN", "HOW TO FIX THIS", "RELANCE BORKEN X".

First lets look at the mechanic:

Who does it influence?
In order of most affected by the skill:
- traders
- scammers
- people who get scammed
Any changes to Margin trading affect traders the most. Only 1% (I'm pulling this number out of my ass) of all people who are affected (or using) the skill are non-traders

How does it influence them?
Traders: Allow them to set up large amounts of buy orders, requiring up to 86% less liquid isk in the wallet that can be invested or used elsewhere
Scammers: prey upon the greedy and uninformed
People who get scammed: Greedy and uninformed, lose money instead of making easy big bucks

How is this broken?
Traders: working as intended
Scammers: working as intended
People who get scammed: CCP PLS FIX & GIBE MONI BACK

See a pattern here?

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2013-11-22 13:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
@Electrique Wizard

You don't get it, with the current escrow/wallet mechanic you can manipulate the market with nearly zero risk. I'm not talking about "scam" i'm talking about big fat manipulations in the range of 2-3digit billions with zero risk wherat the risk of getting dumped hundreds of overpriced items is eliminated.

I used the mechanic myself extensively to manipulate any item i wished.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#132 - 2013-11-22 13:09:54 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
@Electrique Wizard

You don't get it, with the current escrow/wallet mechanic you can manipulate the market with nearly zero risk. I'm not talking about "scam" i'm talking about big fat manipulations in the range of 2-3digit billions with zero risk wherat the risk of getting dumped hundreds of overpriced items is eliminated.


Please elaborate on this, I didnt know you could manipulate up to 100+b with zero risk or isk! I always thought setup up orders of ridiculous size and value cost a lot of isk in transaction costs and taxes.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#133 - 2013-11-22 13:14:02 UTC
Scams are fine

Scams where the system itself fucks you over are not.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2013-11-22 13:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Electrique Wizard wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
@Electrique Wizard

You don't get it, with the current escrow/wallet mechanic you can manipulate the market with nearly zero risk. I'm not talking about "scam" i'm talking about big fat manipulations in the range of 2-3digit billions with zero risk wherat the risk of getting dumped hundreds of overpriced items is eliminated.


Please elaborate on this, I didnt know you could manipulate up to 100+b with zero risk or isk! I always thought setup up orders of ridiculous size and value cost a lot of isk in transaction costs and taxes.


Please read the edit part on my orignal post, i explained it there how you can use it. And if i'm talking about 2-3digit billions i'm not talking about one item, i'm talking about several items you can manipulate at once without the risk of getting dumped hundreds of overpriced items to your buy orders.

Anyway the "problem" with the margin trading skill is directly tied to how the escrow/wallet mechanic works. When you want to change the margin trading skill in a fair way you have to understand how the background mechanic is working.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#135 - 2013-11-22 13:23:15 UTC
I have and dont see how this is relevant. That's like margin trading scams 101...

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2013-11-22 13:26:40 UTC
Electrique Wizard wrote:
I have and dont see how this is relevant. That's like margin trading scams 101...


Revelant is how the escrow/wallet mechanic works and why the margin trading "scam" works in different ways.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#137 - 2013-11-22 13:30:46 UTC
Jori McKie wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
I have and dont see how this is relevant. That's like margin trading scams 101...


Revelant is how the escrow/wallet mechanic works and why the margin trading "scam" works in different ways.


Obligatory: "point on the doll to the place where the bad scammer touched you"
Manipulating the market is something that is done in real life aswel. Margin trading is fine. And the scamming part only penalizes the lazy, greedy and uninformed. If anything, scammers should receive a medal from CCP along with a Scorpion Ishukone Watch for their efforts to make EVE a better and more educated place.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Florian Bao
Black Box Technologies
#138 - 2013-11-22 13:40:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Thats it, I'm done making balance threads and sticking to market related threads from now on!




yes, please pay more attention to market and industry optimization
Anthar Thebess
#139 - 2013-11-22 13:42:14 UTC
Good that CCP finally noticed this.
I don't have any thing against scamming , but like you stated , players see this order as any other.
From my perspective the best option is to remove this skill - we have already way to much isk in the system.
If you cannot afford something just don't try to buy it - because from your perspective it will be hard to manage it - this will put way to much pressure on your infrastructure if we just look on the actual impact group.



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Show your support to The Cause!
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2013-11-22 13:43:29 UTC
Electrique Wizard wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:
Electrique Wizard wrote:
I have and dont see how this is relevant. That's like margin trading scams 101...


Revelant is how the escrow/wallet mechanic works and why the margin trading "scam" works in different ways.


Obligatory: "point on the doll to the place where the bad scammer touched you"
Manipulating the market is something that is done in real life aswel. Margin trading is fine. And the scamming part only penalizes the lazy, greedy and uninformed. If anything, scammers should receive a medal from CCP along with a Scorpion Ishukone Watch for their efforts to make EVE a better and more educated place.


Dude, I am the trader who manipulates the market with the knowledge of how the mechanic behind the margin trading skill works. And you reply tells me you did not understand what i described, how it works, how you can make billions of ISK risk free. I do not use the standard margin trading scam, i manipulate the market in some other way you still don't get.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar