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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#61 - 2013-11-21 19:49:58 UTC
Matthew wrote:


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
RL businesses, just like traders in EvE, can implement good business practices to avoid future losses (like researching the true value of your goods, as well as their sales volume and volatility).


Sure, if you order something once and then don't complete, the RL business would generally suck it up. But if you came in and did it every single day, that RL business is quickly going to realise that you are not a legitimate customer and refuse to do business with you. The anonymity of the Eve market and the inability of the market to self-regulate intent in the same way as such human decision-making prevents that from being a viable option, hence why other options like minimum collateral levels are being explored.


So let's remove the anonymity within the EvE market.... I want to see who's placing those buy & sell orders!!! And this would be a good source of potential conflict as people identify their competitors!!!
Simc0m
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-11-21 19:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Simc0m
Vincent Athena wrote:

They do it for 5 items, and place 5 of the same item up for sale in a station 12 jumps away. Sure a player could fly 12 jumps, get one item, bring it back and sell, then repeat 4 more times. But in all likelihood they will buy all 5 so as to do just one trip. Then upon arriving they will succeed in selling one item, and be stuck with 4 that are vastly overpriced.


Or the scammer could just cancel the order after the items are purchased at the distant station. This is more of a hauling scam and I don't think there is any real solution (nor should there be?).
Lukas Rox
Aideron Technologies
#63 - 2013-11-21 19:52:51 UTC
Heres a copy of my post from another thread about this issue: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3600276#post3600276

Quote:
Margin Trading scams exist because people trust the market too much. In 99.9% of orders they complete, so new players quickly learn to trust the market. And then out of a sudden it fails them, leaving them with an item they never wanted in the first place.

IMO what should be changed is Aura should say something about "dont trust buy orders" in the tutorial:

"Market buy orders can sometimes fail, for example when the buyer does not have enough money to cover the order. Some people can deliberately use this against you."

And that's it I think. If someone didn't run the tutorial, then and only then they can be blamed for their ignorance.

Proud developer of LMeve: Industry Contribution and Mass Production Tracker: https://github.com/roxlukas/lmeve | Blogging about EVE on http://pozniak.pl/wp/
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-11-21 19:53:34 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Matthew wrote:


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
RL businesses, just like traders in EvE, can implement good business practices to avoid future losses (like researching the true value of your goods, as well as their sales volume and volatility).


Sure, if you order something once and then don't complete, the RL business would generally suck it up. But if you came in and did it every single day, that RL business is quickly going to realise that you are not a legitimate customer and refuse to do business with you. The anonymity of the Eve market and the inability of the market to self-regulate intent in the same way as such human decision-making prevents that from being a viable option, hence why other options like minimum collateral levels are being explored.


So let's remove the anonymity within the EvE market.... I want to see who's placing those buy & sell orders!!! And this would be a good source of potential conflict as people identify their competitors!!!

The anonymity doesn't come from not being able to see who placed the order. The anonymity comes from freely available throwaway alts.
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
#65 - 2013-11-21 19:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Chigurh Friendo
Rise,

I have a third solution, which basically covers how I manage my own use of the Margin Trading skill as a market player when handling the various debts that I owe to people.

The solution:

For any character with open buy orders (and the margin trading skill), only allow ISK transfers up and to the amount of the difference between the 'wallet balance' and the 'additional isk required to cover' for buy orders.

In practice, supposing that all buy orders filled instantly, the difference between 'wallet balance' and 'total isk required to cover' is the amount of liquid ISK that a player has at their disposal, which they can freely transfer.

Thus, the solution would be that players can still take advantage of the Margin Trading skill to leverage themselves on the market in order to profit at the fastest possible rate when they are up-and-coming marketeers, but it doesn't allow for the abusive 'empty margin trading buy-order' that exists under the current system.

Proposal Summary:

Maximum ISK Transfer Amount = Wallet Balance - "Additional ISK Required to Cover"



EDIT:

I should add that I think the current solutions are sub-optimal.

Rise's Solution #1 fails because it entirely defeats the purpose of enabling the Margin Trading skill to serve as leverage for aggressive market players... at least because it isn't specific about the exact criteria used for assessing order cancellation.

Rise/CSM Solution #2 fails because it clutters the market interface, makes the whole experience more confusing, and still doesn't achieve the level of transparency required for players to make informed decisions about whether an order is legitimate or not (ala "Do I cut the red wire or the blue wire?"). i.e. the coloured orders have no inherent meaning and are only understood in the context of knowing the mechanic and how it applies... This knowledge is non-intuitive, and therefore fails on the grounds of being an ineffective communication methodology.


2nd EDIT:

My proposal fails, because of workarounds involving over-buys on alt-items in obscure locations (as a means of transfer) or contractual over-buys (as another means of ISK transfer).
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-11-21 19:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Lukas Rox wrote:
Heres a copy of my post from another thread about this issue: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3600276#post3600276

Quote:
Margin Trading scams exist because people trust the market too much. In 99.9% of orders they complete, so new players quickly learn to trust the market. And then out of a sudden it fails them, leaving them with an item they never wanted in the first place.

IMO what should be changed is Aura should say something about "dont trust buy orders" in the tutorial:

"Market buy orders can sometimes fail, for example when the buyer does not have enough money to cover the order. Some people can deliberately use this against you."

And that's it I think. If someone didn't run the tutorial, then and only then they can be blamed for their ignorance.

The question is, do we want the UI to intentionally lie to you? Can you name any other aspect of the game where it does?

(API in relation to POS siphons. Yes I'm still kinda mad. [/offtopic])
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#67 - 2013-11-21 19:55:52 UTC
Simc0m wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

They do it for 5 items, and place 5 of the same item up for sale in a station 12 jumps away. Sure a player could fly 12 jumps, get one item, bring it back and sell, then repeat 4 more times. But in all likelihood they will buy all 5 so as to do just one trip. Then upon arriving they will succeed in selling one item, and be stuck with 4 that are vastly overpriced.


Or the scammer could just cancel the order after the items are purchased at the distant station. This is more of a hauling scam and I don't think there is any real solution (nor should there be?).

Yes they can do that, but that requires they be on 24/7. My way is "fire and forget".

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2013-11-21 19:57:43 UTC
Simc0m wrote:

Really? I would love for you to explain what's wrong with my solution.

as has already been pointed out, you don't even appear to know how to do a margin scam. nobody does it the way you suggest because those are obvious, margin scams are done one of these two ways:

a buy order of one or two will fail with an empty wallet because your escrow is not enough to cover one or two of the item

or you just put up a buy for 100 minimum 1, then sell yourself 24, presto escrow gone and it looks normal

so you should probably know how a margin scam even works before proposing fixes

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Miranda McLaughlin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-11-21 20:02:41 UTC
I agree that margin trading in and of itself is not a bad thing. I also agree that margin scams should be, for lack of a better phrase, fought against and that the only way to do this is by providing information to other players.

I don't think that canceling orders based on how much ISK you have in your wallet is a good idea as it ignores the time factor in market activity. The only time that an order should care about how much ISK you have is when it is trying to be fulfilled.

Let's use Rise's example of having a buy order for a thorax for 5 million, another buy order for a rupture for 5 million, and only 7 million ISK in my wallet. If someone then fulfills the thorax order my wallet balance would drop to 2 million ISK leaving me 3 million short for the rupture order. Currently as long as I add the remaining 3 million to my wallet before someone tries to fulfill the rupture order everything is fine. A cancels orders might cancel the rupture order once my wallet drops to 2 million forcing me to, at best, recreate the order. At worst I may not even realize the order was cancelled.


I think there are several things that could be done that, together or individually, would significantly help the problem.

1) Add a column to the market window for whether an order was made on margin or not. This allows people to easily see this information when looking at any order, doesn't add any more complexity to the interface, and allows people to freely ignore the information if they want to.

2) When someone views the information of a buy order it checks the buyer's wallet and tells the seller whether buyer can afford the order at that moment or not. This allows a player to have more confidence in arbitrage and would help protect players from margin scams. I'm debating whether I think it would be a good idea for multiple quantity buy orders to show exactly how many of the item the buyer could afford. I'm leaning more towards no.

3) On the list of my orders show whether or not I can cover the cost of the order. This is more just to help people verify if they have enough ISK in their wallet.

4) I like the idea of being able to "guarantee" an order by putting up the full amount. As I understand it the system currently causes all buy orders to be made using margin trading so you could simply have the option to guarantee but have the default be margin so there really isn't much of a difference. Additionally you could have the option to guarantee the order after it has been placed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#70 - 2013-11-21 20:04:44 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Matthew wrote:


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
RL businesses, just like traders in EvE, can implement good business practices to avoid future losses (like researching the true value of your goods, as well as their sales volume and volatility).


Sure, if you order something once and then don't complete, the RL business would generally suck it up. But if you came in and did it every single day, that RL business is quickly going to realise that you are not a legitimate customer and refuse to do business with you. The anonymity of the Eve market and the inability of the market to self-regulate intent in the same way as such human decision-making prevents that from being a viable option, hence why other options like minimum collateral levels are being explored.


So let's remove the anonymity within the EvE market.... I want to see who's placing those buy & sell orders!!! And this would be a good source of potential conflict as people identify their competitors!!!

The anonymity doesn't come from not being able to see who placed the order. The anonymity comes from freely available throwaway alts.


Actually... I'd like CCP to implement Industrial, Financial, and Market Analysis Agents that allow you to follow the isk trail.

I agree, throw-away alts allow you to hide too much of your identity. But you can also approach this from the opposite perspective, and choose to deal with players that have good reputations.... If I want to buy a supercapital, I go to Chribba...

It won't take long for players to develop reputations for honorable dealings.


Finally, who is hurt buy a failed buy order? Not the informed seller, who bought the goods at a reasonable price knowing that the buy order may fail. The buyer loses some fees, but for the most part, neither party is hurt.

The pain comes when people use buy orders to estimate the true value of a product, and buy an item over-market-value that they can't resell for profit. The onerous is on the reseller here... not on the buyer!
Noriko Mai
#71 - 2013-11-21 20:05:51 UTC
Chigurh Friendo wrote:
Rise,

I have a third solution, which basically covers how I manage my own use of the Margin Trading skill as a market player when handling the various debts that I owe to people.

The solution:

For any character with open buy orders (and the margin trading skill), only allow ISK transfers up and to the amount of the difference between the 'wallet balance' and the 'additional isk required to cover' for buy orders.

In practice, supposing that all buy orders filled instantly, the difference between 'wallet balance' and 'total isk required to cover' is the amount of liquid that a player has at their disposal, which they can freely transfer.

Thus, the solution would be that players can still take advantage of the Margin Trading skill to leverage themselves on the market in order to profit at the fastest possible rate when they are up-and-coming marketeers, but it doesn't allow for the abusive 'empty margin trading buy-order' that exists under the current system.

Proposal Summary:

Maximum ISK Transfer Amount = Wallet Balance - "Additional ISK Required to Cover"


Ok. I buy one Tritanium for one billion from my alt at a different station and transfer the ISK that way...

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#72 - 2013-11-21 20:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

The question is, do we want the UI to intentionally lie to you? Can you name any other aspect of the game where it does?

(API in relation to POS siphons. Yes I'm still kinda mad. [/offtopic])


Hopefully, when they implement "deployable decoy ships", your overview & dscan will lie to you and inform you there is an avatar at that cyno, when really there isn't!

*edit* Also, many large collideable structures have the names of ships... but you can't fly off with them....
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-11-21 20:26:52 UTC
How about this:

Add an "fillableUnits" field to every order (how many he can actually buy with his current wallet), and a "minimum ISK required" field to each player (the amount needed to completely fill the largest margin order he has outstanding)

Each time a player's wallet amount changes and he had < minimum ISK required either before or after the change, check his active margin buy orders and update the fillableUnits field to be the actual number of units he can buy with the current content of his wallet.

If fillableUnits < minimum units required, display the order in red and do not let a player attempt to fill it.

If fillableUnits < units remaining in the order, display the order in yellow but let it be partially filled.

Send notifications to the buyer when orders go red or yellow.

Recompute the minimum ISK required as needed (for example: fillableUnits changes, or if a margin order is added, cancelled, changed or filled)

At first glance, since most players don't have margin buy orders outstanding, and most of the ones that do aren't playing fancy games and will have > minimum ISK required, this should minimize the cost of implementing the check.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Noriko Mai
#74 - 2013-11-21 20:32:59 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
How about this:

Add an "fillableUnits" field to every order (how many he can actually buy with his current wallet), and a "minimum ISK required" field to each player (the amount needed to completely fill the largest margin order he has outstanding)

Each time a player's wallet amount changes and he had < minimum ISK required either before or after the change, check his active margin buy orders and update the fillableUnits field to be the actual number of units he can buy with the current content of his wallet.

If fillableUnits < minimum units required, display the order in red and do not let a player attempt to fill it.

If fillableUnits < units remaining in the order, display the order in yellow but let it be partially filled.

Send notifications to the buyer when orders go red or yellow.

Recompute the minimum ISK required as needed (for example: fillableUnits changes, or if a margin order is added, cancelled, changed or filled)

At first glance, since most players don't have margin buy orders outstanding, and most of the ones that do aren't playing fancy games and will have > minimum ISK required, this should minimize the cost of implementing the check.

Why showing them in red and not hide them? I don't want to look at dozens of red orders if they have no meaning for me.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#75 - 2013-11-21 20:35:39 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
How about this:

Add an "fillableUnits" field to every order (how many he can actually buy with his current wallet), and a "minimum ISK required" field to each player (the amount needed to completely fill the largest margin order he has outstanding)

Each time a player's wallet amount changes and he had < minimum ISK required either before or after the change, check his active margin buy orders and update the fillableUnits field to be the actual number of units he can buy with the current content of his wallet.

If fillableUnits < minimum units required, display the order in red and do not let a player attempt to fill it.

If fillableUnits < units remaining in the order, display the order in yellow but let it be partially filled.

Send notifications to the buyer when orders go red or yellow.

Recompute the minimum ISK required as needed (for example: fillableUnits changes, or if a margin order is added, cancelled, changed or filled)

At first glance, since most players don't have margin buy orders outstanding, and most of the ones that do aren't playing fancy games and will have > minimum ISK required, this should minimize the cost of implementing the check.


While I don't mind this option... Is this feasible?
Anytime someone's personal wallet changes, the server needs to update the legitimacy of all their orders. That overhead, coupled with the sales volume of Amarr, Rens, or Dodixie (let alone Jita) would be brutal!! Is this realistically an option?
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-11-21 20:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
CCP Rise already suggested cancelling the order whenever you don't have enough money, so I would guess that this is feasible.
Lethin
Gold Star Red Swords and White Shield
#77 - 2013-11-21 20:42:49 UTC
Simple option? Once the margin isk is used up, require the character top up the % or the buy is flagged with color text showing its in default until topped up. Or do not show margin orders that have no isk behind them?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#78 - 2013-11-21 20:43:05 UTC
If a market order fails, the player should forfeit their escrow for that buy order and their Margin Trading skill gets reset to I.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
#79 - 2013-11-21 20:53:32 UTC
Thomas Hurt wrote:
Automatically cancel any orders where the 'Minimum Buy Volume' * 'Price per unit' is greater than the amount in your wallet


Supported, server load issues notwithstanding.
Armakoir
Entity 42
#80 - 2013-11-21 20:56:19 UTC
A simple suggestion in terms of coding (presumably): what if character info for buyers and sellers was accessible through the market window?

This would keep the responsibility in the hands of the selling player, which I think is the best--and most capitalistic--approach. Allowing players to see who is selling and buying would allow for communication between buyer and seller, and in the case of honest orders, allow for API verification that the order would go through. It would also allow for the building of reputations, both good and bad--and would put solving the problem in the hands of the Eve community. This solution would also not eliminate the potential for such scams all together. This solution would also have more complex ramifications, but I think these would generally be good (ie. things going boom).

I recognize that brokers actually handle the buying and selling, but perhaps it's time for the privacy "laws" of New Eden to change? Or perhaps there is some other initial design reason why this information has never been available on the market screen and it's time to readdress that reason?