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For God and the Empire

Author
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#41 - 2013-11-21 09:28:05 UTC
I generally rather my crews and other staff don't have slave collars...
Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#42 - 2013-11-21 09:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangirdas Bachir
Job Valador wrote:
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Rin Valador wrote:
My life is the metal, my experiences the Hammer. I am a sword forged for the one God to use to smite his enemy's and protect his people. I know in my heart the God I worship is real. As I am sure you believe yours is. Let us leave it at that. Discussion of religion in a setting such as this normally never yields results for either side. Lets just be friends with a mutual respect for each other instead. I will find a way to convert you later ^_^

Where is your proof for this God. Exactly, zero, none, it doesn't exist, the only proof you have is that you "believe" in your heart. "Believing" is not enough proof, it's just a sign of blindness. This is why I can't accept or support religion. Now you may have the freedom to follow it, but I recommend you let go and do as you please, and not what your God pleases.



Thing is though Dangirdas, if I had the choice between a life of zealotry or, hmmmmm, lets say, a miss adventure to Rens that resulted in a genital disease, Which do you think I would choose? This is in no way a stab at your personal life

>.>
<.<

Ok maybe it is. Rin forgive me for being immature xD

*laughs* This is intriguingly funny, thank you. Anyway, a way from the jokes, just because I made "one" miss adventure to Rens. Doesn't make you right. The fact still stands, you have no proof.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#43 - 2013-11-21 09:42:39 UTC
hehe, of course Dangirdas, but like Rin I do not like discussing religion in this kind of public setting. The reason for the jokes Blink

And Samoth, in what situations would you have to use slave collars on your crew and staff o_O? you must be a very mean employer to have to resort to those tactics friend. tsk tsk

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."

Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#44 - 2013-11-21 09:49:38 UTC
Seeing you are trying to shift the slaves issue onto me, I will state that i work with a very select group that i call my crew. None of which are slaves, and all accepted the job i offered. They also happen to be well paid.. by their standards.

The use of slaves just proves how closed minded the Amarr empire has become, that it has to force others to do what they are unable to do.
Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#45 - 2013-11-21 09:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangirdas Bachir
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
Seeing you are trying to shift the slaves issue onto me, I will state that i work with a very select group that i call my crew. None of which are slaves, and all accepted the job i offered. They also happen to be well paid.. by their standards.

The use of slaves just proves how closed minded the Amarr empire has become, that it has to force others to do what they are unable to do.

God damn, finally someone seeing the way I do. The Amarr justify this by saying that the slaves get better lives, because they mostly pick up new slaves in slums.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#46 - 2013-11-21 10:02:44 UTC
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
Seeing you are trying to shift the slaves issue onto me, I will state that i work with a very select group that i call my crew. None of which are slaves, and all accepted the job i offered. They also happen to be well paid.. by their standards.

The use of slaves just proves how closed minded the Amarr empire has become, that it has to force others to do what they are unable to do.

God damn, finally someone seeing the way I do. The Amarr justify this by saying that the slaves get better life's, because they mostly pick up new slaves in Minmatar slums.


I agree, by that thought I could pick up a Slaver Hound that was starving to death, feed it premium food and care for it. But do experiments on it and claim it has a better life.

They really are a ludicrous people.
Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#47 - 2013-11-21 10:04:47 UTC
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Samoth Egnoled wrote:
Seeing you are trying to shift the slaves issue onto me, I will state that i work with a very select group that i call my crew. None of which are slaves, and all accepted the job i offered. They also happen to be well paid.. by their standards.

The use of slaves just proves how closed minded the Amarr empire has become, that it has to force others to do what they are unable to do.

God damn, finally someone seeing the way I do. The Amarr justify this by saying that the slaves get better life's, because they mostly pick up new slaves in Minmatar slums.


I agree, by that thought I could pick up a Slaver Hound that was starving to death, feed it premium food and care for it. But do experiments on it and claim it has a better life.

They really are a ludicrous people.

You forgot to add that they are religious zealots who praise conservatism.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#48 - 2013-11-21 10:09:05 UTC
Attempt at humor and the cessation of topic = denied

Samoth, our institution of slavery is meant to guide lost souls to god, and it is unfortunate how Holders will abuse this divine tool to the point of savagery.

On another note I can take apart my entire Armageddon and put it back together in perfect working order if I had to. It's not that we cant do something, it's us giving the opportunity to others not yet privy to God's light a chance to learn valuable skills to become exceptional members of society.

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."

Rin Valador
Professional Amateurs
#49 - 2013-11-21 10:12:56 UTC
I'm not in the mood for pointless back and forth bickering. As I have said, places like this are not a good place for these kind of topics.

I am going to sleep, I have a big day tomorrow.


I expect you to turn off your neocom and come to bed as well Job Evil

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." - The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10

Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#50 - 2013-11-21 10:13:49 UTC
Job Valador wrote:
Attempt at humor and the cessation of topic = denied

Samoth, our institution of slavery is meant to guide lost souls to god, and it is unfortunate how Holders will abuse this divine tool to the point of savagery.

On another note I can take apart my entire Armageddon and put it back together in perfect working order if I had to. It's not that we cant do something, it's us giving the opportunity to others not yet privy to God's light a chance to learn valuable skills to become exceptional members of society.

You're guiding these "lost" souls to nothing. You're just making them more lost. It's like me trying to "guide" someone into believing that warp gates is the creation of the secret midget people who live in the core of the universe.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#51 - 2013-11-21 10:17:37 UTC
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Job Valador wrote:
Attempt at humor and the cessation of topic = denied

Samoth, our institution of slavery is meant to guide lost souls to god, and it is unfortunate how Holders will abuse this divine tool to the point of savagery.

On another note I can take apart my entire Armageddon and put it back together in perfect working order if I had to. It's not that we cant do something, it's us giving the opportunity to others not yet privy to God's light a chance to learn valuable skills to become exceptional members of society.

You're guiding these "lost" souls to nothing. You're just making them more lost. It's like me trying to "guide" someone into believing that warp gates is the creation of the secret midget people who live in the core of the universe.



Wait... are you telling me midgets DIDN'T create the warpgates?!? I have been bamboozled for years it seems...


And wifey told me to quit it so I think I will put away my Neocom. I'm sure we will end up talking more in the future Dangirdas and Samoth. Till then, Fly safe.

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."

Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#52 - 2013-11-21 10:18:18 UTC
So i am assuming these 'slaves' have risen up the ranks above amarrians have they? and are completely free to do as they please?

Yes Job, do as your Master tells you....Twisted
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-11-21 11:26:18 UTC
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge. Without knowledge we wouldn't be where we are now. Religion didn't give us what we have, science did.

In fact, belief in absence of God is the illusion of knowledge.
Both religious and not religious people separate religion from science, understanding, that one with other don't mix. Many religious scientific workers and philosophers dedicated their lives to even find the God or other supernatural things by scientific means. Instead, they made many discoveries and inventions, that we use today. But the God (or absence of God) still remains outside of the science reach. And I am happy, that many of future religious scientists will keep working and giving us marvelous results.

On other hand, there are ignorant fools, who can claim, that God exists or doesn't exist, is a scientific fact. Well, actually, I never heard anyone, who said that existence of God is scientific fact, but I heard a lot of such ignorant ideas about his absence. There is no knowledge about it, and no known scientific method can prove or refute existence of God.

Those, who claim, that absence of God is scientific fact, are illiterate uneducated fools, who have no slightest idea, what actually science is.

Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Worshiping a god, is easier than thinking.

In fact, theologicians are very wise and educated peoples. Unfortunately, underdeveloped gallentean brains are unable to understand them.

Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
We shouldn't work for a God, the "common" good, we should work for science, the actual good, because understanding things is better than making **** up. There are more wonders in science and reason, than in dreams of the Amarrian theology. Don't insult me, it's pointless, it doesn't get your point more across then it already has.

Working for science doesn't contradict working for religion, working for God, common good, or doing your duties.

If you believe, that science is in conflict with religion, than you are just an ignorant, who doesn't know BOTH science and religion.


Dangirdas Bachir wrote:

Democracy doesn't work? It works, it works for all, that's the whole point. A democracy can choose, have more options, more freedom. A democracy can close down things it doesn't want. While a dictatorship remains for the top class to decide what is done and not for the agreement or disagreement of the people. Sure, a scientist might be more "important" than a janitor. but without a janitor those sciencist would have to waste time cleaning **** up. A society can't exist without different types of individuals, if that be a low to high class citizens. They all support each other. And making the low class unhappy will just eventually end up ruining the whole system. Rebellion, riots and boycott.

Democracy work. Right. To keep in check grey brainless subhumans like gallenteans. So, let them rot in their democracy, while we will use way more efficient and superior management systems.

Have more... freedom? Freedom is a dangerous and destructive, almost criminal concept. Those, who want freedom, can simply land on an uninhabited planet, leave all their clothes possessions behind, and live with animals, like a wild animal.

Close down things, it doesn't want? And who is this "it"? Grey masses of uneducated ignorant gallentes, who know about science only word "science"? You know, I am happy that the State is ruled by properly educated and trained management personnel and CEOs, and not by maids and janitors of federation, who vote for... stuff.

And yes, janitors must exist to cleaning stuff up. But, you know, it is their job to clean mess and mess only, and don't poke their noses into matters they don't understand. Give them food. Give them even entertainment, if they are weak minded and can't concentrate on their work, so they are all happy and productive. But keep them away from decision making. That's how the State operates. And that's why we are stronger. And that's why we will win.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-11-21 12:57:20 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
In fact, belief in absence of God is the illusion of knowledge.


As indeed is belief in the presence of God.

Absence of belief is the only attitude which is not so badly founded.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#55 - 2013-11-21 13:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangirdas Bachir
Diana Kim wrote:
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge. Without knowledge we wouldn't be where we are now. Religion didn't give us what we have, science did.

In fact, belief in absence of God is the illusion of knowledge.
Both religious and not religious people separate religion from science, understanding, that one with other don't mix. Many religious scientific workers and philosophers dedicated their lives to even find the God or other supernatural things by scientific means. Instead, they made many discoveries and inventions, that we use today. But the God (or absence of God) still remains outside of the science reach. And I am happy, that many of future religious scientists will keep working and giving us marvelous results.

On other hand, there are ignorant fools, who can claim, that God exists or doesn't exist, is a scientific fact. Well, actually, I never heard anyone, who said that existence of God is scientific fact, but I heard a lot of such ignorant ideas about his absence. There is no knowledge about it, and no known scientific method can prove or refute existence of God.

Those, who claim, that absence of God is scientific fact, are illiterate uneducated fools, who have no slightest idea, what actually science is.

Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Worshiping a god, is easier than thinking.

In fact, theologicians are very wise and educated peoples. Unfortunately, underdeveloped gallentean brains are unable to understand them.

Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
We shouldn't work for a God, the "common" good, we should work for science, the actual good, because understanding things is better than making **** up. There are more wonders in science and reason, than in dreams of the Amarrian theology. Don't insult me, it's pointless, it doesn't get your point more across then it already has.

Working for science doesn't contradict working for religion, working for God, common good, or doing your duties.

If you believe, that science is in conflict with religion, than you are just an ignorant, who doesn't know BOTH science and religion.


Dangirdas Bachir wrote:

Democracy doesn't work? It works, it works for all, that's the whole point. A democracy can choose, have more options, more freedom. A democracy can close down things it doesn't want. While a dictatorship remains for the top class to decide what is done and not for the agreement or disagreement of the people. Sure, a scientist might be more "important" than a janitor. but without a janitor those sciencist would have to waste time cleaning **** up. A society can't exist without different types of individuals, if that be a low to high class citizens. They all support each other. And making the low class unhappy will just eventually end up ruining the whole system. Rebellion, riots and boycott.

Democracy work. Right. To keep in check grey brainless subhumans like gallenteans. So, let them rot in their democracy, while we will use way more efficient and superior management systems.

Have more... freedom? Freedom is a dangerous and destructive, almost criminal concept. Those, who want freedom, can simply land on an uninhabited planet, leave all their clothes possessions behind, and live with animals, like a wild animal.

Close down things, it doesn't want? And who is this "it"? Grey masses of uneducated ignorant gallentes, who know about science only word "science"? You know, I am happy that the State is ruled by properly educated and trained management personnel and CEOs, and not by maids and janitors of federation, who vote for... stuff.

And yes, janitors must exist to cleaning stuff up. But, you know, it is their job to clean mess and mess only, and don't poke their noses into matters they don't understand. Give them food. Give them even entertainment, if they are weak minded and can't concentrate on their work, so they are all happy and productive. But keep them away from decision making. That's how the State operates. And that's why we are stronger. And that's why we will win.

Yeah, let people believe in something that "might" be there, that is most likely not. Following a thing that we don't understand, or have any comprehension off even if it's out there. Religion is just a scheme to hold control over the people, and letting them believe that they are in control, that they are following by themselves because oh lord religion is so great. It bonds people together and let's us work for the same cause. Sad thing is that, if you can't bond, or work for the same cause without religion, you're just a person with no social skills. We can achieve all these so great things without religion.

You are ignorant as any other person who supports or likes the idea of religion. Drop it, or engulf in your own stupidity.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-11-21 13:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
That depends on the religion. A religion is basically just a set of dogmas and philosophies - as such, it is a tool, and like any tool may be turned towards enlightening or degrading ends.

An example: The traditional Caldari "Way of the Winds" has a secular offshoot known by its creator as "The New Way" but which is more commonly named after him - Uuskyounto, named for Vakarin Uuskyoun. This variant of Wayism retains the overarching philosophical constructs, the traditions, the rituals and practices, but acknowledges that wind, being the phenomenon of air moving around in response to a pressure differential, is unlikely to actually be able to speak, think or teach.

So what it instead does is retain the names of the ancient Wayist winds and spirits - Cold Wind, Heart of the Forest, etc. - and uses them as useful labels for states of mind, conditions to think upon. It treats their names as the pen names by which wisdom on a particular topic was anonymously contributed to our society by thousands of human authors over the generations, and encourages us to add to that tradition by meditating on the mindset and teachings the Winds evoke. If, for instance, I meditate on Cold Wind then I am cultivating a mindset of calm intellect and rational thought. If I meditate on Heart of the Forest, then I am turning my thoughts to resource management, conservation of the natural world and efficiency.

To "Wander abroad and listen to the voices of distant winds" in the New Way means to listen to all points of view and dissect them for their wisdom and merit, and incorporate what you have learned into your own understanding. This was effectively a commandment in the Way of the Winds, and I believe it is an excellent practice for anybody, no matter their origin or beliefs.

This is still very much a religion, but I have found it to be an empowering and constructive one. I do not feel controlled by it, because the dogma of the New Way is to think, at length and in depth, and to consider how your actions can benefit the largest collective, including your own self.

Religion is a tool, and a powerful one. It should not be shunned for its abuses any more than an MTAC should be shunned for somebody deciding to rip apart their boss's office with one. The right religion, practiced in the right way, can be the precise opposite of a "scheme to hold control over people."

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-11-21 13:29:54 UTC
This would all be well and good if just under half the cluster didn't follow a religion that is quite transparently a tool of control and racial supremacy.

Also, what happened to your arm?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-11-21 13:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Right. but the criticism needs to be levelled at the correct target - Amarr. Don't blame all religions for the excesses of a single one, any more than you would for people. I am not responsible for the failings of Tibus Heth despite being a fellow Civire. The evils of Amarr do not reflect on the Way of the Winds, despite the fact that they are both religions.

Think of the religious impulse as being kind of like a chainsaw - used correctly, they make it a matter of minutes as opposed to hours to fell a tree and cut it up into sections useful for building a house. Used incorrectly, they can maul or kill. But it's not the chainsaw that's to blame if somebody lacerates their leg, and it's certainly not the fault of all chainsaws everywhere.

The arm is an experiment, a trial - I'm trying it out to see if there are any practical benefits. Not sure yet whether I'll be keeping it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Dangirdas Bachir
The Exiled Titans
#59 - 2013-11-21 13:43:47 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Right. but the criticism needs to be levelled at the correct target - Amarr. Don't blame all religions for the excesses of a single one, any more than you would for people. I am not responsible for the failings of Tibus Heth despite being a fellow Civire. The evils of Amarr do not reflect on the Way of the Winds, despite the fact that they are both religions.

Think of the religious impulse as being kind of like a chainsaw - used correctly, they make it a matter of minutes as opposed to hours to fell a tree and cut it up into sections useful for building a house. Used incorrectly, they can maul or kill. But it's not the chainsaw that's to blame if somebody lacerates their leg, and it's certainly not the fault of all chainsaws everywhere.

The arm is an experiment, a trial - I'm trying it out to see if there are any practical benefits. Not sure yet whether I'll be keeping it.

Your points are valid, but we can get the same goals without religion. A society can exist in peace without one. Our only religion should be science and logic, without it being called a religion. More like common sense.

EVE EVE STARGALACTIC CITY B I T C H

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-11-21 13:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Dangirdas Bachir wrote:
Our only religion should be science and logic, without it being called a religion.


Call a shovel a shovel.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders