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RIP Fun PVE Vargur
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Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-11-21 10:24:09 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.


Did, wont, its worse, and if you cant read above then dont contribute.


So how exactly is it worse then?

Quote:
VARGUR

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 6M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG(+5000), 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8300(+700) / 7300(+500) / 6900 (-400)
Shield resists: 25% EM / 50% EX / 40% KIN / 30% THERM
Armor resists: 70% EM / 10% EX / 25% KIN / 43.125% THERM
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200(+575) / 1100s(+176.1s) / 5.6 cap/s (-0.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 m/s(-20) / .112(-0.004) / 96520000(-9580000) / 14.99s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81km(+6km) / 145(+60) / 10
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 360(-65)


As you see, NO damage/application bonus was changed. If your pre rubicon fit doesn't work exactly the way as before you are doing something wrong. horribly wrong. And point still stands: no one forces you to use MJDs and Bastion.

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-11-21 10:57:12 UTC
Camper101 wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.


Did, wont, its worse, and if you cant read above then dont contribute.


So how exactly is it worse then?

Quote:
VARGUR

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 6M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG(+5000), 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8300(+700) / 7300(+500) / 6900 (-400)
Shield resists: 25% EM / 50% EX / 40% KIN / 30% THERM
Armor resists: 70% EM / 10% EX / 25% KIN / 43.125% THERM
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200(+575) / 1100s(+176.1s) / 5.6 cap/s (-0.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 m/s(-20) / .112(-0.004) / 96520000(-9580000) / 14.99s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81km(+6km) / 145(+60) / 10
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 360(-65)


As you see, NO damage/application bonus was changed. If your pre rubicon fit doesn't work exactly the way as before you are doing something wrong. horribly wrong. And point still stands: no one forces you to use MJDs and Bastion.


so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-11-21 10:59:21 UTC
Sigras wrote:
only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles



Now.. check how much dps the vargur does at 30 km comapre to all the other options. THe difference is far HIGHER than 10%

And selectable damage type sis NOT as relevant.

My paladin has no problem with a single damage type, because I simply run missiosn where EM is the best damage.. period.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-11-21 11:01:04 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.


So...ummm, Macharial ------>

If 20MS means that much to you. We know Fozzie ******* hates matar, but it is what it is.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-11-21 11:04:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.


So...ummm, Macharial ------>

If 20MS means that much to you. We know Fozzie ******* hates matar, but it is what it is.



No one is saying there is no option. Just that vargur is less efficient?

Why people must transform every statement in a reason to have a crusade?

Its a simple statement, does not matter if the statement is not relevant in some scenario, the statement is still true!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sigras
Conglomo
#66 - 2013-11-21 11:07:14 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles



A typical carebear response. MOAR tank PLEASE - the rats are frightening.

A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned.

Really? your cruiser can do 925 DPS at 4.5 + 66 km using no drones? Please tell me more about your mystery cruiser . . .

Typical moron response. Post first think never.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-11-21 11:23:26 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Sigras wrote:
only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles



A typical carebear response. MOAR tank PLEASE - the rats are frightening.

A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned.

Really? your cruiser can do 925 DPS at 4.5 + 66 km using no drones? Please tell me more about your mystery cruiser . . .

Typical moron response. Post first think never.



925 dps at 4.5 you numpty. at 66 it isnt.

Theres something missing between your ears.
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-11-21 11:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Camper101
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.


Did, wont, its worse, and if you cant read above then dont contribute.


So how exactly is it worse then?

Quote:
VARGUR

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 6M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG(+5000), 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8300(+700) / 7300(+500) / 6900 (-400)
Shield resists: 25% EM / 50% EX / 40% KIN / 30% THERM
Armor resists: 70% EM / 10% EX / 25% KIN / 43.125% THERM
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200(+575) / 1100s(+176.1s) / 5.6 cap/s (-0.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 m/s(-20) / .112(-0.004) / 96520000(-9580000) / 14.99s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81km(+6km) / 145(+60) / 10
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 360(-65)


As you see, NO damage/application bonus was changed. If your pre rubicon fit doesn't work exactly the way as before you are doing something wrong. horribly wrong. And point still stands: no one forces you to use MJDs and Bastion.


so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.


Which still does not matter, as i doubt you fight anything other than frigs with your drones (->Lights). Or did you really use 3 sentries? And the speed does not really change a thing, Marauders have never been fast to start with. If you want a fast ship, use a Mach. Maybe you should start reading. Also: He was complaining about his guns. Guns are still the same. /argument

I love how people think their ship suddenly became terribad, just because other ships profit more off a new module you don't have to use.

And how exactly did the other 3 Marauders get buffed damage wise?

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-11-21 12:07:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.


So...ummm, Macharial ------>

If 20MS means that much to you. We know Fozzie ******* hates matar, but it is what it is.



Yes - its my current train - but you know whats going to happen, and the 2nd falloff king will fall.

As an alternative. Cruiser with 800 dps - get an Ishtar, AB, 4x DD, Fed Omnis x2 and shield rigs/tank.
Small sig, fast, and optimal to 67k with Garde. Tracking comes out more or less identical to Vargurs 800mm - go figure. Its the only cruiser that can 'fit' large guns.

That makes the staggering 900+ DPS of autos at a stellar 4.5k seem less impressive.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#70 - 2013-11-21 12:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
Edit: forum derp

Guess I might as well put something here, so I guess I'll just reiterate that if you were using a Vargur for mobility, you've been using the wrong tool for the job. And just because a change to a ship may have put a crimp in your playstyle, it doesn't render the ship useless.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-11-21 12:58:22 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Edit: forum derp

Guess I might as well put something here, so I guess I'll just reiterate that if you were using a Vargur for mobility, you've been using the wrong tool for the job. And just because a change to a ship may have put a crimp in your playstyle, it doesn't render the ship useless.



When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#72 - 2013-11-21 13:37:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.

OP was complaining about pre-Rubicon Vargur vs. current Vargur. Comparing Vargur to other marauders is an entirely different conversation.
Seriously Bored
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-11-21 14:22:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Seriously Bored
Kagura Nikon wrote:
When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.


It isn't. So it isn't a nerf, Nikon.

All this talk about damage at 30KM and 66KM is pretty irrelevant anyway.

MWD your Marauder butt until you're 10-15KM from the BS cluster, shooting the small stuff on the ride over, then hit bastion on and off right away. They're dead right around the end of a full bastion cycle, and before they run 30KM out.

Rinse. Repeat. Rake in ISK.



ED: Just as a general comment, aimed at no one in particular... I can see that people are resistant to this method of mission running. It takes a bit more effort, and you have to actually think while playing the game. For some reason I can't fathom, your usual S&M mission runners want their missions ships to be completely mindless and management-free. There's just not as much ISK, or fun, in that.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-11-21 14:58:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Edit: forum derp

Guess I might as well put something here, so I guess I'll just reiterate that if you were using a Vargur for mobility, you've been using the wrong tool for the job. And just because a change to a ship may have put a crimp in your playstyle, it doesn't render the ship useless.



When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.


So it gets better tank, better range enough grid to use arties.....

...but its a nerf because the others got buffed more? Can you be a little more emotional, because you certainly aren't making a very logical case.
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#75 - 2013-11-21 15:41:20 UTC
Confirming that terrible pilots, flying ships badly will always whine.

That is all.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2013-11-21 15:50:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Edit: forum derp

Guess I might as well put something here, so I guess I'll just reiterate that if you were using a Vargur for mobility, you've been using the wrong tool for the job. And just because a change to a ship may have put a crimp in your playstyle, it doesn't render the ship useless.



When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.


So it gets better tank, better range enough grid to use arties.....

...but its a nerf because the others got buffed more? Can you be a little more emotional, because you certainly aren't making a very logical case.


Its one of those things I wanted badly with an 'Arty' Vargur. Its DPS is the worst, its got some damage selection, but A Golem beats it hands down in PVE, a Paladin by a lot. I see the Kronos in a similar spot to the Vargur.

The DPS weapon should be harder to apply, but the Paladin applies more with long range than the short range vargur. The Optimal buff helped it get better. Comparing Tachs to Arty - its 25% more dps straight off but I can see that the selectable damage might be in the Vargurs favour, I can also see instant ammo changing to be in the Paladins - you lose that quite a bit with longer range ammo.

But why is DPS the worst - to reiterate - too much wasted dps. Overhit or underhit. Its two guns in one, so its a lot at either end. The waiting time between volleys means lots of rat rep time and closing time.

It all adds up. I have only one ship to compare to pre rubicon and that was the Maelstom. Its DPS is identical - but I used that very infrequently as the vargur got it done quicker and more enjoyably. The nature of artilley and its lack of use in previous marauders - and why was it never allowed? - make it a pretty rubbish weapon for PVE.

Perhaps the Vargur needs a revisit - ROF up - tracking gone? I dunno. Its just quite disappointing with the promise of Bastion?
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-11-21 15:52:20 UTC
DaRiKavus wrote:
Confirming that terrible pilots, flying ships badly will always whine.

That is all.


Reaffirms my belief that posts as useful as this are making eve a better place.
DaRiKavus
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#78 - 2013-11-21 15:57:16 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
DaRiKavus wrote:
Confirming that terrible pilots, flying ships badly will always whine.

That is all.


Reaffirms my belief that posts as useful as this are making eve a better place.



You talk to much for my liking.
Nolen Cadmar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-11-21 16:00:59 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Desudes wrote:
How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?

95% of mission rats stay within 50km


Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.

With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).

The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.


Use MWD? I plan to do that on my Golem. MJDing 100km away makes a stream of wrecks that's more difficult to salvage then just MWDing to the gate if there is one.

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Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#80 - 2013-11-21 16:12:33 UTC
I don't know the Golem with bastion and cruise missiles is pretty nice. Can hit anything within 118km, and mobile tractor unit for those long to reach drops. With TPs to 5secs I seem to pop frigates and cruisers in one shot, sometimes it takes 2 but rarely and BSs go down ungodly fast. And with bastion having a large boost or even just a med boost wit boost amp makes it easy to rock L4s and etc. Don't doubt the Golem, it really isn't bad, IF you have your skills where they are needs. I would like to test a good rail and/or blast Kronos too, but I'm not sure on fit yet, hmmmm.