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ISIS my new favorite feature and certificates.

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cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#1 - 2013-11-20 15:31:39 UTC
The ISIS is a great new feature in eve online. A visual display of all ships PLUS mastery levels at a glance is awesome! It's like a ship hypergraph and makes setting goals so much easier!!!

I really wish we had a visual chart for ammo and weapons. So you can see the falloff of all ammo types displayed in a radial graphic or something similar, and be able to tell at a glance which ammo is long range and which does more damage upclose. I guess if you have more experience you already have this mapping in your head, and I'm sure all good FC have it memorized.


A+ for visual guides! I'm a visual artist and I prefer this over spreadsheets. Plus the graphics are very nicely laid out and super clean! Good job A+++

Rubicon is a hit!

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Ruvin
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-11-20 15:42:53 UTC
but imho certificates need polishing ...
At certain master for example 3 or 4 can have drone range removed , thats a must everywhere almost :|
And let it be for 5 ...?

Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
Inquisitor Ageri
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-11-20 15:45:15 UTC
One of my favourite features also. I follow the certificates as guidelines very closely, so their enhancement has been a welcome development & the one I was most looking forward to in Rubicon. They really did ace it with the intuitiveness of its' interface, I hope to see more features follow suit.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#4 - 2013-11-20 15:48:22 UTC
ISIS = good

Certificates/ship masteries = slightly shinier version of the previously terrible and generally useless certificate system. Like the previous certificate system, the requirements were designed by someone who has never played eve or ever trained a skill.

-My gallente combat pilot has mastery5 for the Obelisk despite only having racial freighter to 3.
-My 60m SP tengu specialized pilot has zero mastery because of a lack of gunnery skills.
-Energy grid upgrades 5, which is pretty much a useless skill 99.5% of the time is required for mastery 5 of nearly every ship.
-Amarr drone specialization 5 is required for all drone ship level 5 masteries. No one in their right mind has ever used an amarr drone that required this skill, much less trained it to 5

The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery because they know which skills they need already, and which they don't. The literal 'gold-standard' of 'train everything to 5, no matter how useless it is!' is still the norm.

So yeah, it'll do its intended function of telling you what skills to train for what ship, but like before it does an absolutely miserable job of actually measuring your skills for any ship.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#5 - 2013-11-20 15:53:09 UTC
Hmm it looks great but I didn't see the functional use in it. Maybe newer players are liking it? I can fly 90% of the ships in game so maybe that's it. Is there something here for me I'm not seeing?

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Inquisitor Ageri
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-11-20 15:54:05 UTC
Batelle wrote:
The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery


These certification systems are there to provide guidance and cater to newer pilots. As an experienced EVE player with as many alts as you have, why would you really need to be looking at the certification/mastery system at all? For the group of players it is targeting, it is an excellent visual asset providing concise information. For the higher-SP pilots, having "mastery" of a particular ship is knowing how to fly it, not what skills you can say you have to its' name.
Victor Dathar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#7 - 2013-11-20 15:54:41 UTC
Gotta train mining drones V for that Noctis people if you want to be the Master.

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#8 - 2013-11-20 16:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
Did I say it's perfect? No.

I think it'sa great start and through user feedback I'm sure they will get a clue where to improve the new ISIS system.

For now it's a welcome addition and as a first version it is well designed and well thought out, now it needs iterations tomake it even better but the framework is now in place to help guide capsuleers with their progress.

It would be great to have the ability to create custom certificates, for example I want to master HAM missiles only, and make a certificate planning guide based on that goal for a specific ship.

The mastery system is nice although too broad but as you said does not address niche needs for specific roles.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2013-11-20 16:09:16 UTC
Inquisitor Ageri wrote:
Batelle wrote:
The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery


These certification systems are there to provide guidance and cater to newer pilots. As an experienced EVE player with as many alts as you have, why would you really need to be looking at the certification/mastery system at all? For the group of players it is targeting, it is an excellent visual asset providing concise information. For the higher-SP pilots, having "mastery" of a particular ship is knowing how to fly it, not what skills you can say you have to its' name.


Of course I don't NEED the certificate system to tell me anything. But i'm pretty sure I'm going to be seeing the mastery level every time I click show info on a ship now, forever. And so it annoys me. As for newer players, it does give them a general idea, but it can be just as equally misleading when it tells you to train skills that are not valuable.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Victor Dathar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#10 - 2013-11-20 16:16:10 UTC
Batelle wrote:
just as equally misleading when it tells you to train skills that are not valuable.


Wait a minute, I need Weapon Upgrades for my Battle Badgers.

^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7

@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#11 - 2013-11-20 16:24:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Inquisitor Ageri wrote:
Batelle wrote:
The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery

These certification systems are there to provide guidance and cater to newer pilots. As an experienced EVE player with as many alts as you have, why would you really need to be looking at the certification/mastery system at all? For the group of players it is targeting, it is an excellent visual asset providing concise information. For the higher-SP pilots, having "mastery" of a particular ship is knowing how to fly it, not what skills you can say you have to its' name.

Let's put it a slightly different way...

IF a very high SP count player who's been excelling at flying certain types of ships only has Mastery level II - III in those ships (especially if he doesn't really feel he would bother training those skills to those levels if they would have never been on the mastery list), then there's something iffy about the list of skills and/or skill levels required for those masteries at those higher levels.

It's not such a big deal for things like non-L5 sensor skills or other similar skills that could be trainable quite fast, BUT it's a problem if a new player is sidetracked from more essential skills (or at least additional levels in those essential skills) by the suggestion (made by the certificate // mastery system) of training minor importance skills to certain rather excessive levels.
Why is it bad, and not just for the newbie, but for the game?
Because it delays (needlessly) the moment the newer player can feel confident enough to step into a ship AND because it could disappoint him by feeling the rather large investment in time to get all those recommended skills was at least a partial waste.
Both of this things make people on the fence more likely to just give up and leave, and adds more people to the "on the fence" region in disproportionate amounts from newer players.


Bottom line ?
An excessively padded skill list on certain mastery levels (be it by skills themselves or at least just the actual skill levels) is not a good thing for new players nor the game itself.
At least not in the long term.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#12 - 2013-11-21 06:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyndrogen
Akita T wrote:
Inquisitor Ageri wrote:
Batelle wrote:
The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery

These certification systems are there to provide guidance and cater to newer pilots. As an experienced EVE player with as many alts as you have, why would you really need to be looking at the certification/mastery system at all? For the group of players it is targeting, it is an excellent visual asset providing concise information. For the higher-SP pilots, having "mastery" of a particular ship is knowing how to fly it, not what skills you can say you have to its' name.

Let's put it a slightly different way...

IF a very high SP count player who's been excelling at flying certain types of ships only has Mastery level II - III in those ships (especially if he doesn't really feel he would bother training those skills to those levels if they would have never been on the mastery list), then there's something iffy about the list of skills and/or skill levels required for those masteries at those higher levels.

It's not such a big deal for things like non-L5 sensor skills or other similar skills that could be trainable quite fast, BUT it's a problem if a new player is sidetracked from more essential skills (or at least additional levels in those essential skills) by the suggestion (made by the certificate // mastery system) of training minor importance skills to certain rather excessive levels.
Why is it bad, and not just for the newbie, but for the game?
Because it delays (needlessly) the moment the newer player can feel confident enough to step into a ship AND because it could disappoint him by feeling the rather large investment in time to get all those recommended skills was at least a partial waste.
Both of this things make people on the fence more likely to just give up and leave, and adds more people to the "on the fence" region in disproportionate amounts from newer players.


Bottom line ?
An excessively padded skill list on certain mastery levels (be it by skills themselves or at least just the actual skill levels) is not a good thing for new players nor the game itself.
At least not in the long term.



It's good for CCP because it keeps players training longer to get that "mastery" badge even if the skills are not needed. Truth is the mastery system means nothing in terms of player skill. I can train to mastery 5 on my BS or BC hull and stil get owned by a better PVP pilot who understands how to use his weapons or has more experience.

Maybe the name "Mastery" is a bad name and should be called something else since it is primarily a suggestion and not a rule.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.
Marexlovox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-11-21 07:02:44 UTC
Victor Dathar wrote:
Gotta train mining drones V for that Noctis people if you want to be the Master.


Cmon what about the Venture.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2013-11-21 07:31:39 UTC
I like how none of the gallente ships have shield skills as a requirement. Not even the industrials, the lachesis, the Ishtar, any of the battlecruisers, or the navy domi or hyperion. Many gallente ships have seen use primarily as shield tanked ships, and are still viable in that configuration for certain roles.

Add shield upgrades 4 and tactical shield manipulation 4 to the shield reinforcement certificate, or at least add it for certain ships that occasionally use it.

CCP has done a lot to make armor more viable in the meta, but its a bit silly to pretend that gallente ships are all armor all the time. This has never been the case and is still not the case.

Conversley, if you look at the machariel, its slot layout is very amenable to an armor tank. Its considered a shield ship because of its popularity with full shield tank and full damage mods. Armor certificates should be in the mastery list for the Mach.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#15 - 2013-11-21 09:48:56 UTC
Batelle wrote:
ISIS = good

Certificates/ship masteries = slightly shinier version of the previously terrible and generally useless certificate system. Like the previous certificate system, the requirements were designed by someone who has never played eve or ever trained a skill.

-My gallente combat pilot has mastery5 for the Obelisk despite only having racial freighter to 3.
-My 60m SP tengu specialized pilot has zero mastery because of a lack of gunnery skills.
-Energy grid upgrades 5, which is pretty much a useless skill 99.5% of the time is required for mastery 5 of nearly every ship.
-Amarr drone specialization 5 is required for all drone ship level 5 masteries. No one in their right mind has ever used an amarr drone that required this skill, much less trained it to 5

The result is that like the previous certificate system, the vast majority of high-sp players will be running around with low levels of mastery because they know which skills they need already, and which they don't. The literal 'gold-standard' of 'train everything to 5, no matter how useless it is!' is still the norm.

So yeah, it'll do its intended function of telling you what skills to train for what ship, but like before it does an absolutely miserable job of actually measuring your skills for any ship.


Mastery 5 means you have maxed everything that is tied to a ship. It's not for the faint of heart as it requires lots of skills at 5. What you want to look at are Masteries 1-4 Blink
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2013-11-21 09:51:04 UTC
Victor Dathar wrote:
Batelle wrote:
just as equally misleading when it tells you to train skills that are not valuable.


Wait a minute, I need Weapon Upgrades for my Battle Badgers.


That's being fixed.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#17 - 2013-11-21 09:53:30 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Stuff.


Good point on the Masteries 1-4, if you feel there are excessive requirements, please, by all means post your feedback there and we'll have a look at what we can do. Pirate
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#18 - 2013-11-21 09:56:17 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I like how none of the gallente ships have shield skills as a requirement. Not even the industrials, the lachesis, the Ishtar, any of the battlecruisers, or the navy domi or hyperion. Many gallente ships have seen use primarily as shield tanked ships, and are still viable in that configuration for certain roles.

Add shield upgrades 4 and tactical shield manipulation 4 to the shield reinforcement certificate, or at least add it for certain ships that occasionally use it.

CCP has done a lot to make armor more viable in the meta, but its a bit silly to pretend that gallente ships are all armor all the time. This has never been the case and is still not the case.

Conversley, if you look at the machariel, its slot layout is very amenable to an armor tank. Its considered a shield ship because of its popularity with full shield tank and full damage mods. Armor certificates should be in the mastery list for the Mach.


Again, as expressed from the Dev Blog , the Mastery / Certificate system isn't meant to be totally accurate to all cases. No system can without becoming terribly convoluted. It's here to provide a guideline for various hulls.

The only way all cases can be addressed is if we allow you, the players to come up with your own corporation Certificates.
Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-11-21 10:01:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


The only way all cases can be addressed is if we allow you, the players to come up with your own corporation Certificates.

Hint for what we will see in Rubicon 1.1 ?:)

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-11-21 10:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Iosue
just wanted to add my thanks and appreciation. ISIS looks beautiful and is very well organized. i really enjoy looking through it even though i'm 100M+ SP. it's actually called my attention to a few skills i wasn't aware of. now i have some new training to look forward to. keep up the good work!!

edit: just wanted to add that i also like the login screen a lot. makes it much easier to determine where all my chars are and what they are up to. makes managing a few accounts easier, which make me a happy camper. Cool
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