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Just get rid of Science, Manufacturing, Trade and Planetary Exploitation

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Psyue Mi
Silverymoon Corporation
#1 - 2013-11-20 18:55:41 UTC
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#2 - 2013-11-20 22:17:26 UTC
Well, just make sure you give me your stuff before you biomass.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#3 - 2013-11-21 04:30:34 UTC
If you can't make a profit doing something, you're in the wrong market. I've been there myself, there's a lot of effort and math required to tell whether or not a market is desirable to get into, and the profit margins are often stupidly low. As such, business models involving buying materials from a safe market and selling products back to that market are likely to be a bad deal, since you're competing against people who think their time is free. To make real profits, you need to take real risks.

Notably: prices, especially for tech 2 stuff, are vastly higher out in nullsec than in hisec, simply for the convenience. That's not a 'scam', it's just a supply and demand thing; guys out in null are rich enough to afford the markup, and pay it gladly for the convenience. There are guys who make a killing running cloaky haulers out to NPC stations... but it DOES take a lot more effort and risk than sitting in one station forever buying and selling.

If you're frustrated enough with the state of your gameplay that you feel you want to give up, why not take some risks and see what happens? After all, if you were going to quit anyway, you're not exactly losing out... and even if you fail and die, at least you'll go out with a bang.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-11-21 05:59:33 UTC
No to OP

Keeping your head above water may be tougher in the 'crafting' side than in PvE activities but it IS possible. It is probably one of the most research intensive endeavours in the game, you need to think it all the way through before you even start.

But a profit can be made and the things in the game HAVE to be made. If something is selling below cost it either means there are too many fools impoverishing themselves (which will self correct) or you are missing something.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-11-21 13:59:14 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


ah you again lol , also try other sell point as jita

www.eve-central.com

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-11-22 12:12:21 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
...What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)...
Using three dedicated PI characters (5M skill points each) in 0.0 makes me +75M ISK each day (+2.0B ISK/month), but I am not doing it in High Sec.

PI is can be very profitable if you find the right location, tax rate, product, have good transportation capabilities, and a dedicated trader alt.
Odinfar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-11-24 22:30:49 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.



I beg to differ. After the Rubicon expansion I have the potential to gross 20+ billion a month off one character with six planets. I know math is hard, but the numbers don't lie. And now with the ability to run tax free POCOs (be it through owning them yourself or by using a little diplomacy with your neighbors) the profits are actually higher for a player willing to learn how to use the system.

As for manufacturing.... please tell me you're kidding. My corp runs blueprints for missiles in Minmatar space. We buy our materials outright instead of harvesting the minerals ourselves and we turn steady profit. As we've grown we've started negotiations with nearby corps to form an alliance (paid for by our PI and Manufacturing), this will drop our costs because most of these corps are mining corps, and thus we will be able to create our own market for minerals, which we will use to make more boom booms, and more iskies.

TL:DR

You're wrong or you're doing something wrong. PI, research, manufacturing, and mining are all profitable if you're willing to use a calculator (which CCP was kind enough to put in game for you).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#8 - 2013-11-25 03:29:47 UTC
Why, oh why, can we not downvote other people?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#9 - 2013-11-29 13:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?


Really? My new very shiny Bhaalgorn tells another story.

Psyue Mi wrote:
with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)


LowSec or NPC Null, just a hint.

Psyue Mi wrote:
currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.


Not sure how or where your trading but thats not my experience, maybe your just unlucky?

Your experience is so at odds with mine that I really find it hard to believe we are playing the same game.

Not supported

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-11-29 14:30:42 UTC
Psyue Mi wrote:
Since you can't really make a profit on invention or manufacturing (due to costs of materials) why bother having the skills?

What with the theft of all items in customs offices and the tax rate hike of 100% (from 10 to 20) planetary exploitation (which takes a decent amount of time and effort), is not worth it anymore (it was barely worth it previously)

And currently trade is basically scamming, with merely a winner and a loser, not true trade at all.

If you are going to devolve the game to just ship to ship combat and mission running, DO IT!

And give us credit for the time and effort we spent gaining skills in things which you have decided to make worthless.

As a 6 year player, I am just about done wasting time with this game.

Mail me for my fire sale prices of modules etc.

A disgruntled player.


Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#11 - 2013-11-29 16:31:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Your problem seems to be mainly that you're not very good at the things you're trying.


Oh Snap!!!

I have awarded you ONE 'Internet Spaceship Forum Like'

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-11-29 18:16:10 UTC
I treasure them all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
YinKo Toranaga
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-11-29 18:46:25 UTC
Planetary Interaction in hi sec was barely worth it in the first place - the only thing we used it for was making POS fuel components so we didn't have to buy any.

2 things about the new PI system really do not make ANY sense to me -

1. Why does the NPC (Interbus) get ANY TAX at all since their customs office was destroyed and replaced by a new customs office from a player corp? IMHO - they should get NOTHING (the NPC tax is ELIMINATED for all by a POCO).

2. Why does a planetary launch off a 500M3 container cause a tax payment to be made? If anything you are engaged in the time honored tradition of smuggling, so no tax payment should be made. If anything, you should get a suspect flag from concord for picking up a planetary launch container - this lets the owners of the POCOs have at you if they care to stake out the planet and try to catch you picking up your smuggled goods.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-11-29 18:54:21 UTC
1) Because of game balance.

2) Because of game balance.
YinKo Toranaga
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-11-29 19:02:18 UTC
Game balance? Really? I would think the introduction of additional taxes to player corps on the POCOs in the first place did a lot more to change the game balance than either of these proposals would.
Daniel Doormant
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-12-02 15:56:23 UTC
Quote:
1) Because of game balance.

No it sucks that taxes went up in HS. That said what this change did allow is yet another stream of income to Highsec warmongers. Most of the smaller corps that erected a poco are on a ticking clock to make the isk back they spend on the customs office and will continue to bleed carebears dry till they get's war decked and the poco goes boomb. The folks that are running the cheaper pocos are just gathering intel to find out who they can war deck will buy their way out in a surrender garnering the corp even more isk. Manufacturing skills are still profitable. Less so with your material (oprotunity and ISK) costs rising. That is not balance that is ISK Redistribution plain and simple.
I see no way for a small corp to get anything but ripped off on this poco thing. Train the skills to reduce the empire portion of the tax or make buddy buddy with someone in WH or Null.
With Odyssey's removal of scanning skills necessary to find good ore deposits killed prospecting for me and Rubicon's removal of scanning skills for exploration with ghost sites is even worse. It seems like they are more at odds with explorers than Carebear industrialists.
When was the last time you had an invention attempt blow up and take your ship and loot with it? Put on your big girl pants. I am just a little HS PI alt and with Customs Code Expertise don't know much else. My character sheet says so. At least Dust toons aren't calling orbital strikes on your command centers.
Zentiu
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-12-03 20:34:20 UTC
Oh snaps! Players can abuse other players OH NO CALL THE CSM TO MAKE SURE MY HS CANNOT BE TAMPERED WITH
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#18 - 2013-12-04 01:01:15 UTC
Do you have a T2 BPO? Then don't bother. You're wasting your time. You will never be able to compete with the Chosen Ones (more truth than sarcasm, btw) whom have been granted these legendary items through the liberal use of deck stacking by their friends in CCP. They've got the best moons. They've got POCOs on all their PIs. They will undercut and undersell you every time because their operating costs, in both time and ISK (what is this "invention" you speak of?) for T2 junk are so close to zero as to make no difference.

That being said, there is still plenty of ISK to made in old fashioned T1 manufacturing. You just have to work with a mindset of quantity over quality. Sure, a single Tech2 item might make you a million ISK, but you know what? So will ten thousand cheap missiles when left on a big sale order in a major trade hub, if you're willing to wait a couple of days. Of course this means more mining and less PI, but so what? Neither one was going to win any awards for being particularly fun or interesting anyway. One sucks just as much as the other, so you may as well go with what works.

I know you feel cheated on all the SP that you spent, but there's no point in complaining about it. CCP would sooner cut off their own nutsacks than refund a single SP to a subscriber. And I can feel your pain, OP: I was a dedicated drone boat captain for most of my career, up to and including the day that CCP decided that drones suck and then went about making that belief into reality. So you're not the only one who'd like to get their SP from some skill or another that CCP decided to make irrelevant at some point - in fact I think the vast majority of subscribers have at least one skill that they wish they could just unlearn. But again, this makes no difference. The good news is that you probably already have more skills than you'll need to go into T1 mass production.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Haraukiae Youik
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-12-04 19:38:36 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Do you have a T2 BPO? Then don't bother. You're wasting your time. You will never be able to compete with the Chosen Ones (more truth than sarcasm, btw) whom have been granted these legendary items through the liberal use of deck stacking by their friends in CCP. They've got the best moons. They've got POCOs on all their PIs. They will undercut and undersell you every time because their operating costs, in both time and ISK (what is this "invention" you speak of?) for T2 junk are so close to zero as to make no difference.

That being said, there is still plenty of ISK to made in old fashioned T1 manufacturing. You just have to work with a mindset of quantity over quality. Sure, a single Tech2 item might make you a million ISK, but you know what? So will ten thousand cheap missiles when left on a big sale order in a major trade hub, if you're willing to wait a couple of days. Of course this means more mining and less PI, but so what? Neither one was going to win any awards for being particularly fun or interesting anyway. One sucks just as much as the other, so you may as well go with what works.

I know you feel cheated on all the SP that you spent, but there's no point in complaining about it. CCP would sooner cut off their own nutsacks than refund a single SP to a subscriber. And I can feel your pain, OP: I was a dedicated drone boat captain for most of my career, up to and including the day that CCP decided that drones suck and then went about making that belief into reality. So you're not the only one who'd like to get their SP from some skill or another that CCP decided to make irrelevant at some point - in fact I think the vast majority of subscribers have at least one skill that they wish they could just unlearn. But again, this makes no difference. The good news is that you probably already have more skills than you'll need to go into T1 mass production.


Just re-subbed, prob. won't last long. My problem is I remember when it was fun to play. Used to play 10hrs straight on weekends. Would never do that now.

CCP long ago lost their way; one thing for certain is they only listen to "certain" groups (and I wonder if those groups use anything other than isk generated plex) and continually slant towards nul sec; constricting hi sec and in so doing making any new additions gratuitous.

Sovereignty is more likely part of the problem and not the solution. WH space is more like the original nul sec than nul sec today.

Solve nul sec problems in nul sec. Unbalancing hi sec doesn't do that and if you want a 0.0 game with free pvp everywhere then good luck. :)
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#20 - 2013-12-05 04:33:40 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
And I can feel your pain, OP: I was a dedicated drone boat captain for most of my career, up to and including the day that CCP decided that drones suck and then went about making that belief into reality.


...what rock have you been living under? Drones are awesome these days, and the Dominix is the king of space, crushing all opposition under the iron fist of sentry drone assist.
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