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RvB - Goons / Poco's
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Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#21 - 2013-11-21 00:21:52 UTC
I think many are failing to see how conventional warfare differs from guerrilla warfare. If the goons, or any major alliance for that matter, bring a fleet to high sec for every poco of theirs that gets reinforced then we'll see a lot of perma decs go through. The dream in high sec is for a nullsec entity to march into high sec and "take whats theirs." It's never happened and never will. The many cannot outmaneuver the few.

At first these entities are going to boast about their numbers but then reality will set in. If I were to take a system worth of goon pocos I would start attacking them all at once. When goons bring a "scary fleet" 20 jumps to defend their 100 mil structure I will just fly to another region until they leave. Whether I have to do this 2 times or 20 times they will eventually be trained to thought that they will not get a fight. Over time these poco's will be forgotten about and be left behind.

Go forth blobbers and capture as many poco's as you can. This way in the future I will only have 1 group to war dec per system.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-11-21 00:50:50 UTC
This can only be settled one way. Marmite needs to ref one of our pocos and then show up to face our defense fleet. Can they even form a fleet? 5 dudes on a gate? 3 guys on an undock? Roll
Sir Bumps-A-Lot
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-11-21 01:48:09 UTC
I agree with Zeus. These will be very difficult proposition to defend for groups that have large numbers of them, especially in different systems. Bigger hi sec crews can easily scrounge up 10k-20k DPS to ref a tower in 8-16 minutes. Now said group does that to 5-20 POCOs in a row. Which do you send the fleet to? By the time the attacking fleet picks one they will have it popped in 4-8 minutes given the above mentioned DPS output. If they show up you bounce out and attack another. Absolute worst case you let the defense fleet rep the POCO, then attack it again in a few hours and play all over again.

The real question is going to be which group is going to get bored of the grind first? I would expect the null sec entities will eventually realize there are more important matters elsewhere closer to home.
Rhes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-11-21 03:06:24 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Its clear you have no clue how we hunt Lol

Sitting on a station undock and hiding in the station any time more than one war target is in-system is a pretty funny definition of hunting.

EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise
Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-11-21 08:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Danalee
Rhes wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Its clear you have no clue how we hunt Lol

Sitting on a station undock and hiding in the station any time more than one war target is in-system is a pretty funny definition of hunting.


Yes! That is EXACTLY how we hunt. Were you in Marmites at any point in time? How you know our most secret tactics is quite scary. Our tactics are obviously inferior to following some kid arround and pressing F1 when he stops shouting profanities at you for 2 seconds Roll

Still, you are right, we couldn't dream of hurting your shitfit blobfleets bridg.... errr... cyno... errr... flying to hisec, no sire.
In fact, I've said it before : every time those organized nullsec powerblocks come to visit, we are doomed to scurry away in a corner and wait untill they leave... It was like that err... one time... err... not so long ago... err... never.

It's not like you guys are overstretched in null as it is, right? No, in fact you have to many bees in every sector hapily ratting and bearing it up.

In short: we scurred now Twisted and also a bit of: bring it, sister!

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Antony E Stark
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-11-21 09:23:23 UTC
Now don't get me wrong, I like Goons but.... This type of venture is unfeasible and unsustainable because, as everyone has already said, they will not have the time, resources or inclination to defend the poco's for very long.

Lets assume that they have dedicated a fleet of moderate proportion of alts or HS dwellers to maintain and guard the poco's. That's all well and good but are they really going to defend, repair, replace every single poco that's attacked? Are they going to out-match and out-gun the rag tag fleets from HS entities? Possibly, initially. However it will soon become more effort than it's worth.

Ultimatley this is just a PR stunt and reminder the Goons are still here and CAN do this IF they choose. I would wager they hope everyone forgets about it and gets bored before dropping the scheme - or that the HS entities will get bored after the initial flurry and leave them and their poco's in peace.

Would I wager that HS entities like Marmite etc would spend vast amounts of time hunting and killing these? Yes! A bit of DPS, a few RR and some EWAR is enough to pop a poco and provide enough for an extraction if a big defense fleet shows up. Also crappy cheap gank ships will do the job just fine - and who cares if you loose a 700 dps gank rax?

Lastly... poco's in Jita? That's it? There must be more. The area in Jita whilst busy cannot surely yield enough resources to justify this expenditure? WAIT! IT'S A TARP! Jita is just a distraction! Shocked

TL;DR: Short term PR stunt and one side will get bored/forget before the other.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-11-21 09:54:35 UTC
If 10 people make something that results in another group moving 500 people to a specific system in high sec at a specific time to do something not fun at all.

Well then these 10 are the ones trolling the large group. Specially since they will jsut use that time to do other stuff in high sec.


Bring huge fleets, you are just making yourself a fool doing so in high sec.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
FallenTitan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-11-21 10:41:23 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If 10 people make something that results in another group moving 500 people to a specific system in high sec at a specific time to do something not fun at all.

Well then these 10 are the ones trolling the large group. Specially since they will jsut use that time to do other stuff in high sec.


Bring huge fleets, you are just making yourself a fool doing so in high sec.



Unless your entire PvP community is based in hi-sec, lives less than 10 jumps from most of their POCOs, Can field 50,000+ dps at a moments notice... and has an insatiable appetite for killmails.

Yet surprisingly that does not stop some corporations from trying, or hiring mercs to try and lay claim to RvB POCOs... their reasoning is still unknown. Yet given that RvB profits go straight back into the RvB community, they underestimate that RvB pilots are keen to defend against these mildly amusing 'merc' alliances.


The RvBee Collective is currently completing research to understand the psychology behind hiring mercs or directly wardecing to claim a POCO for their own 10 man corp, which can not defend their own POCO from the original owners even if they got to the stage of killing and replacing the POCO. Currently, the research seems to indicate extreme retardation on behalf of the war decing corps.
Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-11-21 11:16:55 UTC
FallenTitan wrote:

Unless your entire PvP community is based in hi-sec, lives less than 10 jumps from most of their POCOs, Can field 50,000+ dps at a moments notice... and has an insatiable appetite for killmails.

Yet surprisingly that does not stop some corporations from trying, or hiring mercs to try and lay claim to RvB POCOs... their reasoning is still unknown. Yet given that RvB profits go straight back into the RvB community, they underestimate that RvB pilots are keen to defend against these mildly amusing 'merc' alliances.


The RvBee Collective is currently completing research to understand the psychology behind hiring mercs or directly wardecing to claim a POCO for their own 10 man corp, which can not defend their own POCO from the original owners even if they got to the stage of killing and replacing the POCO. Currently, the research seems to indicate extreme retardation on behalf of the war decing corps.


I don't know about others but we like to be at war with you guys, allows us to test some insane stuff against big blobs and sometimes die in a hilarious way Lol. For the 'being amusing' bit, thanks! As said, we like you too! Big smile

The pocos are just an extra way of getting fights going... It's not like you'll make any serious isk off them or anything.
Why others try to take RVB's pocos you ask? Why not... It's not like you (or any other group for that matter) have limitless resources or supplies.... Not everyone knows what you are about and because you claim some systems as home doesn't mean others don't do the same thing.

In any case, the Hisec poco thing is doing what it's supposed to do, create conflict. I've got my fingers crossed for conflict of the fun kind. Time will tell.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
FallenTitan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-11-21 11:50:05 UTC
Danalee wrote:
FallenTitan wrote:

Unless your entire PvP community is based in hi-sec, lives less than 10 jumps from most of their POCOs, Can field 50,000+ dps at a moments notice... and has an insatiable appetite for killmails.

Yet surprisingly that does not stop some corporations from trying, or hiring mercs to try and lay claim to RvB POCOs... their reasoning is still unknown. Yet given that RvB profits go straight back into the RvB community, they underestimate that RvB pilots are keen to defend against these mildly amusing 'merc' alliances.


The RvBee Collective is currently completing research to understand the psychology behind hiring mercs or directly wardecing to claim a POCO for their own 10 man corp, which can not defend their own POCO from the original owners even if they got to the stage of killing and replacing the POCO. Currently, the research seems to indicate extreme retardation on behalf of the war decing corps.


I don't know about others but we like to be at war with you guys, allows us to test some insane stuff against big blobs and sometimes die in a hilarious way Lol. For the 'being amusing' bit, thanks! As said, we like you too! Big smile

The pocos are just an extra way of getting fights going... It's not like you'll make any serious isk off them or anything.
Why others try to take RVB's pocos you ask? Why not... It's not like you (or any other group for that matter) have limitless resources or supplies.... Not everyone knows what you are about and because you claim some systems as home doesn't mean others don't do the same thing.

In any case, the Hisec poco thing is doing what it's supposed to do, create conflict. I've got my fingers crossed for conflict of the fun kind. Time will tell.

D.

Bear



This isn't really about Marmite, you guys understandably could not compete with an RvB purple fleet waiting at a reinforced POCO.
I wouldn't say this new system is creating much conflict either, so far we've had merc alliances and independent corps alike try to claim POCOs from us... with no success. Heck even if they do succeed we just summon a 100+ purple fleet and take it back.

Since your pilots never enter RvB territory in a solid fleet, at least from what I've seen, it's just a case of shooting lone (often new) RvB members and hoping they are not bait. Your insta-nados on Jita 4-4 help clean the RvB gene pool of new members who don't read intel or MOTDs.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-11-21 12:26:46 UTC
FallenTitan wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If 10 people make something that results in another group moving 500 people to a specific system in high sec at a specific time to do something not fun at all.

Well then these 10 are the ones trolling the large group. Specially since they will jsut use that time to do other stuff in high sec.


Bring huge fleets, you are just making yourself a fool doing so in high sec.



Unless your entire PvP community is based in hi-sec, lives less than 10 jumps from most of their POCOs, Can field 50,000+ dps at a moments notice... and has an insatiable appetite for killmails.

Yet surprisingly that does not stop some corporations from trying, or hiring mercs to try and lay claim to RvB POCOs... their reasoning is still unknown. Yet given that RvB profits go straight back into the RvB community, they underestimate that RvB pilots are keen to defend against these mildly amusing 'merc' alliances.


The RvBee Collective is currently completing research to understand the psychology behind hiring mercs or directly wardecing to claim a POCO for their own 10 man corp, which can not defend their own POCO from the original owners even if they got to the stage of killing and replacing the POCO. Currently, the research seems to indicate extreme retardation on behalf of the war decing corps.


RVB is a bit different from the goons condition that I was answering. Even so a bit of truth remains. If you stop to assemble a large fleet every time one start to shoot your POCO then retreats, you can be easily trolled.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2013-11-21 13:22:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
FallenTitan wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
If 10 people make something that results in another group moving 500 people to a specific system in high sec at a specific time to do something not fun at all.

Well then these 10 are the ones trolling the large group. Specially since they will jsut use that time to do other stuff in high sec.


Bring huge fleets, you are just making yourself a fool doing so in high sec.



Unless your entire PvP community is based in hi-sec, lives less than 10 jumps from most of their POCOs, Can field 50,000+ dps at a moments notice... and has an insatiable appetite for killmails.

Yet surprisingly that does not stop some corporations from trying, or hiring mercs to try and lay claim to RvB POCOs... their reasoning is still unknown. Yet given that RvB profits go straight back into the RvB community, they underestimate that RvB pilots are keen to defend against these mildly amusing 'merc' alliances.


The RvBee Collective is currently completing research to understand the psychology behind hiring mercs or directly wardecing to claim a POCO for their own 10 man corp, which can not defend their own POCO from the original owners even if they got to the stage of killing and replacing the POCO. Currently, the research seems to indicate extreme retardation on behalf of the war decing corps.


RVB is a bit different from the goons condition that I was answering. Even so a bit of truth remains. If you stop to assemble a large fleet every time one start to shoot your POCO then retreats, you can be easily trolled.



Wardec us, try it and let me know how that works out for you...
Karen Avioras
The Raging Raccoons
#33 - 2013-11-21 13:34:00 UTC
Marmite are a bunch of jita-camping poons
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#34 - 2013-11-21 13:51:56 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Still, you are right, we couldn't dream of hurting your shitfit blobfleets bridg.... errr... cyno... errr... flying to hisec, no sire.
In fact, I've said it before : every time those organized nullsec powerblocks come to visit, we are doomed to scurry away in a corner and wait untill they leave... It was like that err... one time... err... not so long ago... err... never.


I guess you guys have forgotten the embarrassment that was your attempt to stop burn Jita 2.

At first it was "we're fighting back the goons they are all dying!" when you caught a few early arrivals. Then you don't undock for 3 days except to whore onto GCC mails.

Then in a fit of hilarity you stay docked and post on Eve O about your KDA.

ANyhooooooo we own most systems of interest already, so your move.


SPOILER: your next move is yelling on the forums about nullbears and not doing anything about it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
#35 - 2013-11-21 13:51:56 UTC
Khador Vess wrote:

Wardec us, try it and let me know how that works out for you...


Never thought you'd ask :) Was waiting for someone to direct something at us!

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Danalee
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-11-21 15:07:04 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

SPOILER: your next move is yelling on the forums about nullbears and not doing anything about it.


Teehee, I hit closer to home than I first imagined Lol
It's ok, we are all bears in some way or another. No reason to get all worked up about it.
It's damaging your facade of elite null overlord Cool

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#37 - 2013-11-21 16:02:13 UTC
What I don't get is why everyone assumes defense of pocos is the only option. Say marmite pops a goon or rvb poco, what happens? There's 3 scenarios:

1) marmite puts up a poco, placing themselves in the exact same position they claim the other groups are in, having to defend a atructure whenever people feel like harassing them. Given marmite's nature, there are ample people who wish to harass them I bet. So really, no change just more strungout fights.

2) marmite has been hired and their employer puts up a new poco. Within a week, that poco will most likely be targeted. Even if tgey hire marmite again, marmite seems to admit they can't stop a blob. the employer has now wasted how much for a poco only to lose it? Other than large entities, who can sustain such a loss? Granted, marmite gets paid, goons and rvb get free content so they all win. The only loser is the employer.

3) someone ninjas the poco and anchors their own. If an rvb/goon alt corp, fight happens again, hurrah for content. If it's a 3rd oarty, see option 2.

And in the case of RvB, if you take more than one poco, blue and red can race to see who captures the most pocos back and we get even better content with a chance of in corp prizes.

So really, dec us, try to take the pocos. It just generates content for us.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-11-21 16:05:55 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
What I don't get is why everyone assumes defense of pocos is the only option. Say marmite pops a goon or rvb poco, what happens? There's 3 scenarios:

1) marmite puts up a poco, placing themselves in the exact same position they claim the other groups are in, having to defend a atructure whenever people feel like harassing them. Given marmite's nature, there are ample people who wish to harass them I bet. So really, no change just more strungout fights.

2) marmite has been hired and their employer puts up a new poco. Within a week, that poco will most likely be targeted. Even if tgey hire marmite again, marmite seems to admit they can't stop a blob. the employer has now wasted how much for a poco only to lose it? Other than large entities, who can sustain such a loss? Granted, marmite gets paid, goons and rvb get free content so they all win. The only loser is the employer.

3) someone ninjas the poco and anchors their own. If an rvb/goon alt corp, fight happens again, hurrah for content. If it's a 3rd oarty, see option 2.

And in the case of RvB, if you take more than one poco, blue and red can race to see who captures the most pocos back and we get even better content with a chance of in corp prizes.

So really, dec us, try to take the pocos. It just generates content for us.




and what would make you think we want anything else than that? content for us? Impressive how everyone in this game thinks they are the only ones playing to have fun....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Dragon Venom
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-11-21 16:26:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
What I don't get is why everyone assumes defense of pocos is the only option. Say marmite pops a goon or rvb poco, what happens? There's 3 scenarios:

1) marmite puts up a poco, placing themselves in the exact same position they claim the other groups are in, having to defend a atructure whenever people feel like harassing them. Given marmite's nature, there are ample people who wish to harass them I bet. So really, no change just more strungout fights.

2) marmite has been hired and their employer puts up a new poco. Within a week, that poco will most likely be targeted. Even if tgey hire marmite again, marmite seems to admit they can't stop a blob. the employer has now wasted how much for a poco only to lose it? Other than large entities, who can sustain such a loss? Granted, marmite gets paid, goons and rvb get free content so they all win. The only loser is the employer.

3) someone ninjas the poco and anchors their own. If an rvb/goon alt corp, fight happens again, hurrah for content. If it's a 3rd oarty, see option 2.

And in the case of RvB, if you take more than one poco, blue and red can race to see who captures the most pocos back and we get even better content with a chance of in corp prizes.

So really, dec us, try to take the pocos. It just generates content for us.




and what would make you think we want anything else than that? content for us? Impressive how everyone in this game thinks they are the only ones playing to have fun....



Sounds likea win/win to me ...

Bring it on
Kristopher Rocancourt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-11-21 16:38:06 UTC
Sir Bumps-A-Lot wrote:
I agree with Zeus. These will be very difficult proposition to defend for groups that have large numbers of them, especially in different systems. Bigger hi sec crews can easily scrounge up 10k-20k DPS to ref a tower in 8-16 minutes. Now said group does that to 5-20 POCOs in a row. Which do you send the fleet to? By the time the attacking fleet picks one they will have it popped in 4-8 minutes given the above mentioned DPS output. If they show up you bounce out and attack another. Absolute worst case you let the defense fleet rep the POCO, then attack it again in a few hours and play all over again.

The real question is going to be which group is going to get bored of the grind first? I would expect the null sec entities will eventually realize there are more important matters elsewhere closer to home.


FW plexing 2.0

http://killalliance.co.uk/tears/tears-holeysheet/