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Astero
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SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-11-20 22:41:18 UTC
Rammix wrote:

I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


And everyone else said that that's stupid, because the Astero is already too amazing and you're trying to reduce what is basically its only disadvantage relative to normal covops.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Rammix
TheMurk
#42 - 2013-11-20 22:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rammix wrote:

I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


And everyone else said that that's stupid, because the Astero is already too amazing and you're trying to reduce what is basically its only disadvantage relative to normal covops.

Forget about covops. Astero is a pvp frigate capable to explore. It has everything to be a pvp frig.
Astero's exploration ability should be nerfed, and Covert Ops's abilities should be boosted.
Keep astero as it is but remove exploration bonuses; give CovOps frigs resistance bonuses. And everything will be alright.

edit.
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rammix wrote:

I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


And everyone else said that that's stupid, because the Astero is already too amazing and you're trying to reduce what is basically its only disadvantage relative to normal covops.

Not everyone.

Ninja edit.
Rammix wrote:
Keep astero as it is but remove exploration bonuses, and reduce recloaking delay to 15 seconds.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-11-20 22:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Rammix wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rammix wrote:

I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


And everyone else said that that's stupid, because the Astero is already too amazing and you're trying to reduce what is basically its only disadvantage relative to normal covops.

Forget about covops. Astero is a pvp frigate capable to explore. It has everything to be a pvp frig.
Astero's exploration ability should be nerfed, and Covert Ops's abilities should be boosted.
Keep astero as it is but remove exploration bonuses; give CovOps frigs resistance bonuses. And everything will be alright.

edit.
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Rammix wrote:

I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


And everyone else said that that's stupid, because the Astero is already too amazing and you're trying to reduce what is basically its only disadvantage relative to normal covops.

Forget about covops. Astero is a pvp frigate capable to explore. It has everything to be a pvp frig.
Astero's exploration ability should be nerfed, and Covert Ops's abilities should be boosted.
Keep astero as it is but remove exploration bonuses; give CovOps frigs resistance bonuses. And everything will be alright.


Yeah, let me grab my crystal ball really quick..

...yeah, it says here that there's disappointment in your future, because none of the stupid **** you just said will be coming true.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-11-20 22:49:58 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
racial frigate skill to V

[sarcasm]
Learning a frig skill to V takes so much time, yeah. It's a very strong argument for a discussion.
[/sarcasm]


by that slippery slope, you should disregard skillpoints altogether for balance purposes....lol......

Pinky Hops wrote:
Overall i think the Astero fills its purpose as outclassing all T1 exploration vessels, while being outclassed by T2 exploration vessels if you have enough skillpoints.
so basically

T2 Cov Ops (with good or very good skills) > Astero > T1 Frigate


[quote=Rammix]I never said to reduce from 30 sec to 5 sec. 12 seconds would be fine, 18 - maximum.


overbuffing. it already does what it does better than any other ship that isn't a T2 ship.

why does it need to be better than that, even?

it's a non-T2 ship that can fit a T2 mod, and you are whining that it has a drawback.

get real
Rammix
TheMurk
#45 - 2013-11-20 22:51:53 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
yeah, it says here that there's disappointment in your future, because none of the stupid **** you just said will be coming true.

You don't have the magic power to turn your opinion into reality, either.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-11-20 22:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Rammix wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
yeah, it says here that there's disappointment in your future, because none of the stupid **** you just said will be coming true.

You don't have the magic power to turn your opinion into reality, either.


Mine is more like a prediction. I'm predicting that CCP is not going to take their designed-and-built as-a-fancy-exploration-ship and turn it into your cloaky-PVP jerkoff fantasy.


It has a good role that it was expressly designed to fulfill. It does it pretty well, possibly too well, and can easily be shoehorned into a number of other roles. It's already OP as ****.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Rammix
TheMurk
#47 - 2013-11-20 22:59:48 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
it's a non-T2 ship that can fit a T2 mod, and you are whining that it has a drawback.

get real

Why would I "get real" if the approach in building this ship was not realistic.

Such recloaking delay is inadequate for a covert ship. If they want to keep the delay, they should make Astero a non-covert frig.
If they want to keep it a covert one, they should put shorter delay. That simple.

The drawback for being overpowered with covops cloak should be not a huge delay, but something else - like high price, rarety, additional significant skill requirements etc etc.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Rammix
TheMurk
#48 - 2013-11-20 23:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
It has a good role that it was expressly designed to fulfill. It does it pretty well, possibly too well, and can easily be shoehorned into a number of other roles. It's already OP as ****.

Sure it's overpowered. That's why they should divide its capabilities between 2 ships, Astero has too much for one. As I've said, they should give resistance bonus to the CovOps frigs and keep astero as an only-pvp ship (maybe with a tiny not-so-sensible bonus to scanner strength).

p.s.
Theoretically: If they wanted they could've even made Astero a T2. It would bring us a hull with t1 and t2 versions (the first for LP and the second based on it).

Such approach would add to the ship's price and could justify it being overpowered.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Janna Sway
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#49 - 2013-11-20 23:25:01 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Janna Sway wrote:
What would be the use of T2 CovOps and Recon ships if these SOE "Faction" ships would make you already restlessly happy and give you all a "T2" ship is already offering you?
Be realistic...

As I've said above, they should've made 2 ships.
Anyway, 30 second delay is totally inadequate for a cloaky frigate.

edit: by "2 ships" I obviously mean "2 frigates".


No.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#50 - 2013-11-20 23:28:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Degnar Oskold
Astero is fine as is. I was the player who got the first ever kill on the server while flying an Astero on Tranquility, and then got 25 more kills in it that day including 6 solo and 2 assisted by rats. I eventually lost it due to stupid piloting by me in a fight I should have won.


The 30-second cloak delay is not a problem for any PVP purpose. You just need to adapt to it (know when to uncloak in warp so you can recloak at the right time) and then it becomes second nature.
Rammix
TheMurk
#51 - 2013-11-20 23:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Janna Sway wrote:

No.

Not "No", "Yes".

Degnar Oskold wrote:
Astero is fine as is. I was the player who got the first ever kill on the server while flying an Astero on Tranquility, and then got 25 more kills in it that day including 6 solo and 2 assisted by rats. I eventually lost it due to stupid piloting by me in a fight I should have won.


The 30-second cloak delay is not a problem for any PVP purpose. You just need to adapt to it (know when to uncloak in warp so you can recloak at the right time) and then it becomes second nature.

Congratulations. Cool

Yes, adaptation is a good thing. But the delay is still inadequate. Flying a frigate and "stumbling" on each gate to wait for the recloak - it's.. it's a bullcrap, the most right word for it.
I'm of those people who believe that fitted onlined covert cloak should be inactive only in 4 cases:
1) You're logged off;
2) You're docking/undocking at this exact moment;
3) You're jumping through a gate/bridge/cyno ATM;
4) You're under POS field.
Highsec is not included.

So, for me, the delay that forces me to stay gatecloaked while I should be warping and travelling further - looks like a damn bullcrap.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#52 - 2013-11-20 23:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Arduemont wrote:
Why are you even using the cloak that much? You only need to turn it on when you have others on grid. If there is no one on grid there is almost no point to hitting the cloak. So if you worried about the delay then just don't use the cloak until you need to use it. Problem solved. Why are you even cloaking when there is no one there to see you?

In the infinitely unlikely event that you would hit two gate camps one after another, then you just need to wait a little while. Or let your cloak off whilst warping so the timer is already up once you have jumped through.

On a side note, I think there should be some indication of when you can use it again. Like having it highlighted red until it is usable.


The point to being cloaked is to not let people see your expensive hull on d-scan easily.


*edit I am fine with the way this ship cloaks, its already an extremely effective ship for what it is.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#53 - 2013-11-20 23:54:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Astero is fine as is. I was the player who got the first ever kill on the server while flying an Astero on Tranquility, and then got 25 more kills in it that day including 6 solo and 2 assisted by rats. I eventually lost it due to stupid piloting by me in a fight I should have won.


The 30-second cloak delay is not a problem for any PVP purpose. You just need to adapt to it (know when to uncloak in warp so you can recloak at the right time) and then it becomes second nature.


26 kills before it popped? I'd say that ship lived a good life, as brief as it was.
Its last "words" were probably a message that said "I regret nothing. Tell my story." on your control panel as it pushed your pod out of the ejection bay.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#54 - 2013-11-21 00:10:08 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Astero is fine as is. I was the player who got the first ever kill on the server while flying an Astero on Tranquility, and then got 25 more kills in it that day including 6 solo and 2 assisted by rats. I eventually lost it due to stupid piloting by me in a fight I should have won.


The 30-second cloak delay is not a problem for any PVP purpose. You just need to adapt to it (know when to uncloak in warp so you can recloak at the right time) and then it becomes second nature.


26 kills before it popped? I'd say that ship lived a good life, as brief as it was.
Its last "words" were probably an message that said "I regret nothing. Tell my story." on your control panel as it pushed your pod out of the ejection bay.



I have literally never killed more ships in a single vessel before losing it! I love this thing, ran enough SOE missions last night to get one more to add to the 2 sitting in my hangar ATM.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-11-21 00:11:28 UTC
Rammix wrote:
Flying a frigate and "stumbling" on each gate to wait for the recloak - it's.. it's a bullcrap, the most right word for it.


I find this hard to understand.

Are you saying you are continuously doing a regular operation (such as warping to gates) and you can't figure out when to uncloak so that you can cloak at the time that you want, given a set timer that doesn't change?

And this is happening over and over?

Hrm.

I don't think it's a problem with the ship. I would blame the pilot.
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#56 - 2013-11-21 12:25:04 UTC
Fitted up another Astero and took it out this morning. Killed a cloaks stabbed Catalyst (!) who'se former pilot then denied that we had a good fight, then killed a cloaks stabbed Merlin, retrieved from its wreck nearly 60 million Isk worth of tags, thanked the former pilot and then prodded him.

I love the Astero. Totally worth the 2.5 hours of SOE missions needed to get one!
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-11-21 13:49:08 UTC
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Fitted up another Astero and took it out this morning. Killed a cloaks stabbed Catalyst (!) who'se former pilot then denied that we had a good fight, then killed a cloaks stabbed Merlin, retrieved from its wreck nearly 60 million Isk worth of tags, thanked the former pilot and then prodded him.

I love the Astero. Totally worth the 2.5 hours of SOE missions needed to get one!


haha nice one

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Rammix
TheMurk
#58 - 2013-11-21 17:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Pinky Hops wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Flying a frigate and "stumbling" on each gate to wait for the recloak - it's.. it's a bullcrap, the most right word for it.


I find this hard to understand.

Are you saying you are continuously doing a regular operation (such as warping to gates) and you can't figure out when to uncloak so that you can cloak at the time that you want, given a set timer that doesn't change?

And this is happening over and over?

Hrm.

I don't think it's a problem with the ship. I would blame the pilot.

You didn't understand me.
I can figure out when the timer is ending.

But I find it stupid that a frigate has to wait gatecloaked at almost every gate before it can travel further cloaked.
Just in case you can't understand even the above sentence, with this stupid recloaking delays you can't do this: jump through, without a pause initiate warp, cloak, reach the next gate, jump, initiate warp without any waiting, recloak... etc.

That is what I called "stumbling".

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#59 - 2013-11-21 18:19:42 UTC
Rammix wrote:


But I find it stupid that a frigate has to wait gatecloaked at almost every gate before it can travel further cloaked.
Just in case you can't understand even the above sentence, with this stupid recloaking delays you can't do this: jump through, without a pause initiate warp, cloak, reach the next gate, jump, initiate warp without any waiting, recloak... etc.

That is what I called "stumbling".


In Low sec this isn't a problem. You only really need to cloak when initiating warp, then drop cloak one you're in warp and able to move freely. The only exception is if you know a smartbomber is in system
Rammix
TheMurk
#60 - 2013-11-22 19:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Degnar Oskold wrote:
Rammix wrote:


But I find it stupid that a frigate has to wait gatecloaked at almost every gate before it can travel further cloaked.
Just in case you can't understand even the above sentence, with this stupid recloaking delays you can't do this: jump through, without a pause initiate warp, cloak, reach the next gate, jump, initiate warp without any waiting, recloak... etc.

That is what I called "stumbling".


In Low sec this isn't a problem. You only really need to cloak when initiating warp, then drop cloak one you're in warp and able to move freely. The only exception is if you know a smartbomber is in system

It's not right for covert ships to fly uncloaked. It's very wrong. They're covert, they're meant to be invisible all the time - except only 4 cases I've mentioned in an earlier post.
I know that many people tick d-scan only once-twice per minute, some almost don't use it, but - still many people are keen in d-scan usage and tick it every 2-5 seconds when not afk. I repeat, any ship must keep itself away from d-scan for as long as 'physically' possible.
So any covert ship which has to fly uncloaked when it actually doesn't have to be uncloaked (by 4 factors mentioned higher or by the pilots intention) - is broken. It's especially true for pvp ships (astero IS a pvp ship by its abilities).

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread