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RIP Fun PVE Vargur
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marVLs
#41 - 2013-11-20 15:06:03 UTC
It's nothing new that rubicon Vargur is the worst marauder
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2013-11-20 15:23:49 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Get a Mach.

A comment that makes sense.
Remember that they are going to be changed soon though.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-11-20 15:29:45 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:


Yes - this was what I used before Rubicon, but using it now, I move slower. Quite a bit slower. I never change ammo on Autos - the DPS loss while waiting is terrible. I am burning to them or at an optimal between them to get better damage. 55k is a terrible range to shoot from with autos - but 45k is better, 35k is good, 25k is nicer still etc etc, at 15k its damn nice.

I cant make that distance at the speed I used to. To me it feels like a nerf because the short range boat that the Vargur was is gone - they have tried to make it a long range boat with Bastion/MJD but failed to take into account that the bonuses have little effect on artillery, and the double gun bonus on Marauders doesn't work well with artillery - its overdamage or underhit. With autos I didnt need more tank, or more falloff (more is nice, but when I can move in and apply it).

As many have noted for range - Paladin is much better, Golem is ok, Kronos is meh (drones gone) and Vargur just poorl.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.



Its an entire 110m/s slower, not a huge loss (half the time I just orbit the beacon or the outgate anyway). And with the exception of a handful of missions, you can load one type of ammo at the start and be done. I highly doubt most people are so 'on the ball' with keeping the guns busy as to worry about reload impacting DPS to change damage types. In exchange for a 11m/s loss and a slight TE nerf, you get a free high slot to better clear field with, and better fitting options. I'd say its an overall buff to the platform.

And if you think the paladin is all that, try running it versus anything but its racial enemy. No dmg selection hurts, and its drone bay does not leave many options. Plus, killing things outside 48km hurts the salvaging efforts. I just don't see the big loss. I am honestly very happy with the changes, if a bit bummed out that the bastion module suffers stacking penalties so that I can't reach out even further than before making its kinda pointless.
Seriously Bored
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-11-20 15:38:00 UTC
Folks... you're missing a module.

Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives.

ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success

The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-11-20 15:38:26 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:


Yes - this was what I used before Rubicon, but using it now, I move slower. Quite a bit slower. I never change ammo on Autos - the DPS loss while waiting is terrible. I am burning to them or at an optimal between them to get better damage. 55k is a terrible range to shoot from with autos - but 45k is better, 35k is good, 25k is nicer still etc etc, at 15k its damn nice.

I cant make that distance at the speed I used to. To me it feels like a nerf because the short range boat that the Vargur was is gone - they have tried to make it a long range boat with Bastion/MJD but failed to take into account that the bonuses have little effect on artillery, and the double gun bonus on Marauders doesn't work well with artillery - its overdamage or underhit. With autos I didnt need more tank, or more falloff (more is nice, but when I can move in and apply it).

As many have noted for range - Paladin is much better, Golem is ok, Kronos is meh (drones gone) and Vargur just poorl.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.



Its an entire 110m/s slower, not a huge loss (half the time I just orbit the beacon or the outgate anyway). And with the exception of a handful of missions, you can load one type of ammo at the start and be done. I highly doubt most people are so 'on the ball' with keeping the guns busy as to worry about reload impacting DPS to change damage types. In exchange for a 11m/s loss and a slight TE nerf, you get a free high slot to better clear field with, and better fitting options. I'd say its an overall buff to the platform.

And if you think the paladin is all that, try running it versus anything but its racial enemy. No dmg selection hurts, and its drone bay does not leave many options. Plus, killing things outside 48km hurts the salvaging efforts. I just don't see the big loss. I am honestly very happy with the changes, if a bit bummed out that the bastion module suffers stacking penalties so that I can't reach out even further than before making its kinda pointless.



if you want to do real isk you do NOT salvage. You blitz. I only carry 1 salvager and 1 tractor to salvage 2-3 wrecks as a tiny extra. Will not loose any extra time because of loot and salvage. Sicne the mission loots was nerfed so muchits not worth

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-11-20 16:01:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ezra Tair wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:


Yes - this was what I used before Rubicon, but using it now, I move slower. Quite a bit slower. I never change ammo on Autos - the DPS loss while waiting is terrible. I am burning to them or at an optimal between them to get better damage. 55k is a terrible range to shoot from with autos - but 45k is better, 35k is good, 25k is nicer still etc etc, at 15k its damn nice.

I cant make that distance at the speed I used to. To me it feels like a nerf because the short range boat that the Vargur was is gone - they have tried to make it a long range boat with Bastion/MJD but failed to take into account that the bonuses have little effect on artillery, and the double gun bonus on Marauders doesn't work well with artillery - its overdamage or underhit. With autos I didnt need more tank, or more falloff (more is nice, but when I can move in and apply it).

As many have noted for range - Paladin is much better, Golem is ok, Kronos is meh (drones gone) and Vargur just poorl.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.



Its an entire 110m/s slower, not a huge loss (half the time I just orbit the beacon or the outgate anyway). And with the exception of a handful of missions, you can load one type of ammo at the start and be done. I highly doubt most people are so 'on the ball' with keeping the guns busy as to worry about reload impacting DPS to change damage types. In exchange for a 11m/s loss and a slight TE nerf, you get a free high slot to better clear field with, and better fitting options. I'd say its an overall buff to the platform.

And if you think the paladin is all that, try running it versus anything but its racial enemy. No dmg selection hurts, and its drone bay does not leave many options. Plus, killing things outside 48km hurts the salvaging efforts. I just don't see the big loss. I am honestly very happy with the changes, if a bit bummed out that the bastion module suffers stacking penalties so that I can't reach out even further than before making its kinda pointless.



if you want to do real isk you do NOT salvage. You blitz. I only carry 1 salvager and 1 tractor to salvage 2-3 wrecks as a tiny extra. Will not loose any extra time because of loot and salvage. Sicne the mission loots was nerfed so muchits not worth



Its only 'not worth' it if you have to come back. Which is kind of the point of the entire platform. If i can clear the field and keep guns blazing, I do. I don't sit and wait to clear field, I warp off after finished with red crosses. So 2 salvagers, and 2 tractors works fine. i could see changing a AB for a MWD since my entire fit is cap injected, but only pulsed. Its an option now that the Vagur has some better fitting. Few people can (or want) run/blitzs missions for hours on end without any interruption. So this minor loss in isk/hr in the fitting has no impact unless you are never not shooting rats.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#47 - 2013-11-20 16:02:29 UTC
I lucked into a drone storyline mission called Evolution from Trust Partners right after the expansion dropped. I ran and got a Bastion and loaded it to the exact same fit I've been running for a year now (4 800's, 3 tractors, X-L booster, amp, invuln, 2 rat hardeners, AB, 3 gyro, 2 TE, Valks, salvage drones).

Warp in. Burn closer to range. Bastion. They have neuts! Oh wait, I don't care. Murder everything. Drop Bastion. Move to the gate while vacuuming the wrecks.
Repeat.
100 million made last night in a few missions.
Hell, I finally kicked the **** out of In The Midst of Deadspace 5 of 5 because the Caldari sensor damps didn't work on me. Burned to within about 50 km of everything, Bastioned, murdered. Had to chase down the 3 Tempura's because they kept at 50 and their shield regen was too fast. But that took minutes.

The ONLY thing that got worse was my warp time between stations and mission spaces.

tl;dr Quit whining. Take the new shiny and adapt. Using the exact same setup from before, everything has improved but hull/warp speed.
Seriously Bored
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-11-20 16:04:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
if you want to do real isk you do NOT salvage. You blitz. I only carry 1 salvager and 1 tractor to salvage 2-3 wrecks as a tiny extra. Will not loose any extra time because of loot and salvage. Sicne the mission loots was nerfed so muchits not worth


This. Oh so much this.

I will say, though, that I've found with 2x Tractors, 1 Salvager II, and Salvage Drones I can process all large wrecks, and any other wrecks with loot before the last rat pops.

MWD right into the center of the blob, hit Bastion, and kill while looting and salvaging at the same time. It works beautifully with just a T2 tank. The Vargur is a league above the Mach for missions now.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-11-20 16:28:26 UTC
Seriously Bored wrote:
Folks... you're missing a module.

Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives.

ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success

The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.



Ill give this a try.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#50 - 2013-11-20 16:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Seriously Bored wrote:
Folks... you're missing a module.

Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives.

ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success

The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.


Someone that gets it.

I don't see how the vargur which before bastion was great somehow got nerfed by it's addition along with the powergrid buffs. This setup is little different from what it used to be. If you really wanna push its new powergrid buffs drop 1 TC for an AB or MWD.

[Vargur, Post Buff AC3]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I / Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive / 100mn Afterburner or MWD
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Salvager I
Salvager I
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5
Salvage Drone I x5


The Kronos still has tracking issues and set in stone damage types. It has the most effective tank now with the Reactive Armor Hardener and Bastion mode. 50k Optimal is nice too and the ability to use blasters out to 40km reliably is also great.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#51 - 2013-11-20 20:53:51 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.

I fly missions for fun/catharsis, personally, and last night I actually enjoyed Assault for the first time ever.

I know several people have said it already, but seriously... have you considered a Machariel? It's similar to a Vargur but with more focus on mobility. Sounds like it's exactly what you're going for.
Adacia Calla
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-11-21 01:05:53 UTC
This is what I use for L4s.

Don't get bitchy about the ASB, I have 3000 charges that I bought for next to nothing a couple years ago so I'm trying to use them. Range is 4.8km+80km (5% falloff implant), and it does over 1km/s which is more than enough for getting into position / moving between acceleration gates.

[Vargur, L4]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Core A-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Small Tractor Beam II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Bastion Module I
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Salvage Drone I x5

Test signature....forum not applying settings :(
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#53 - 2013-11-21 03:08:42 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.


sounds like the fit I was already running. but hey I've been saying the varg changes are boring for a while now so w/e.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#54 - 2013-11-21 03:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Seriously Bored wrote:
Folks... you're missing a module. Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives. ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.


Having a Vargur catching dust in my hangar and waiting for my subs to expire, I fooled around with it today and came up with this:

[Vargur, arty]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Gyrostabilizer II
Signal Amplifier II

Tracking Computer II,Optimal Range Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Shadow Serpentis 100MN Microwarpdrive

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Drone Link Augmentor II
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Bastion Module I
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
[empty high slot]
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
[empty high slot]

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II

Bouncer II x2

- Artillery fit to actually work with ranges you'd use with an MJD fit.
- Dualprop MWD and MJD
- 42+104 optimal with faction ammo, 813 dps without drones @ optimal, (918 with 2 bouncer II), 132 km lock range
- 1435 dps burst tank in bastion sustainable for 2:37, 871 dps sustainable.

Tried it ingame - works - hardly takes any damage and snipes just fine.

However did you notice something? With a bare 2 slot tank, this ship is vastly overtanked and does cruiser DPS.

Now comparing it to a sentry ishtar with rails, the tank is inferior due to it being immobile in bastion and having 3x the sig radius whilst damage application is worse due to large guns vastly inferior sig resolution.

Bastion mode needs a DPS buff - I can outperform that with about any faction BS (pirate and navy) or even a rail/sentry hype.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-11-21 03:36:07 UTC
This reminds me of when they changed SBs from cruise missiles to torpedos. Suddenly they went from being a worthless gimmick ship to something that could actually be used in real combat...

...and boy, were some people pissed about that.

Torpedos? Huge DPS? A COVERT OPS CLOAK? **** that. They wanted to snipe frigates with low-sig cruise missiles until the end of time.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1063335

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Sigras
Conglomo
#56 - 2013-11-21 07:45:24 UTC
only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#57 - 2013-11-21 09:11:20 UTC
also it can solo c5 sites with a t2 only tank (tested it myself on sisi)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-11-21 09:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Camper101
Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-11-21 09:38:28 UTC
Camper101 wrote:
Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.


Did, wont, its worse, and if you cant read above then dont contribute.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-11-21 09:49:37 UTC
Sigras wrote:
only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles



A typical carebear response. MOAR tank PLEASE - the rats are frightening.

A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned.