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RIP Fun PVE Vargur
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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-11-20 13:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Zor'katar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The vargur tank could already shrug even the hardest level 4 mission. 100% extra means nothing.

Sure it does. It means you can drop a tank mod or two for prop, TCs, SeBos, whatever.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Zor'katar wrote:
Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.


NOPE. it does NOT!

VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!!

It does, actually. Raw DPS for an AC Vargur is almost 1000. Graph it in Pyfa... it's still getting around 700 at 50k.



With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns.


Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!


That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#22 - 2013-11-20 13:26:02 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
> Use Autocannons
> Load regular close range ammo
> MJD 100k away

> complain that you don't apply damage at range anymore, ignore the TE nerf, blame everything on the hull.

Way to go!

To be fair, at 750dps with 4 faction Gyros, I'm pretty sure he's using Artillery.

Lloyd Roses wrote:
@Vargur in Bastion: The Bastionmod is only necessary for challenging pve, like soloing c4/c5 anoms, running Instrumental cores (yes, pve with 2k+ incoming dps) It does not make any sense to fit a bastionmodule on a L4-marauder, putting aside the immunity to NPC-ewar.

That's a pretty massive thing to put aside in some missions.

Bastion is plenty useful in L4s from the standpoint of freeing up slots formerly used for tank to put them to better use. I suppose if you were already running a 2-slot tank, though, then it would be pretty underwhelming.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#23 - 2013-11-20 13:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zor'katar
Kagura Nikon wrote:
With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns.

Barrage? Ew.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!

That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km.

Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-11-20 13:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Layla Firoue
A little bit of EFT warrioring gives me a Vargur T2 fit with ok tank and 109km fall off Shocked
To me it only seems that the Paladin is the one fairly OP compared to the other 3, especially the Tachy Paladin.

Var Lulz

[High]
4x 800mm II
1x Bastion Module
2x whatever

[Mid]
2x Invul. Field II
1x Large Shieldbooster II
2x Tracking Computer II
1x MJD

[Lows]
3x Gyro II
2x Tracking Enhancer II

[Rigs]
1x Burst Aerator II
1x Ionic Field Projector II

759 DPS with Barage 9,6km optimum + 109 km fall off and not so bad tracking I might add! (For Barrage)
953 DPS RF EMP 4,8 km optimum + 73 km fall off
131 km lock range to boot!
No implant shenanigans just perfect skills assumed.

Does not look too shabby so I don´t really see your problem OP.
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-11-20 13:33:54 UTC
Why would you try to shove mods on there just because there is a bonus too them?

If it doesn't help, don't use it. I don't use a MJD and won't be using a bastion module. They aren't really useful for level 4's.

But on the bright side, we picked up an extra high. Now I have 2 tractors and 2 salvagers going.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#26 - 2013-11-20 13:34:47 UTC
Get a Mach.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#27 - 2013-11-20 13:35:10 UTC
Cindy Marco wrote:
Why would you try to shove mods on there just because there is a bonus too them?

If it doesn't help, don't use it. I don't use a MJD and won't be using a bastion module. They aren't really useful for level 4's.

But on the bright side, we picked up an extra high. Now I have 2 tractors and 2 salvagers going.


Sounds good, but that actually requires thinking about things rather than trying to fly todays ship like yesterday's ship.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-11-20 13:37:05 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns.

Barrage? Ew.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!

That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km.

Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.



Ever heard of stack penalties? Old vargiur piltos that knew what they were doign woudl not waste so much modules on useles stack nerfed attributes. They would put also stuff for speed.. to blitz faster .

Getting clsoer faster was way more efficient way of increasign dps than fighting a 4th level stack nerf for a tiny bit more falloff (remember bastion modules suffer stack nerf).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-11-20 13:38:23 UTC
Layla Firoue wrote:
A little bit of EFT warrioring gives me a Vargur T2 fit with ok tank and 109km fall off Shocked
To me it only seems that the Paladin is the one fairly OP compared to the other 3, especially the Tachy Paladin.

Var Lulz

[High]
4x 800mm II
1x Bastion Module
2x whatever

[Mid]
2x Invul. Field II
1x Large Shieldbooster II
2x Tracking Computer II
1x MJD

[Lows]
3x Gyro II
2x Tracking Enhancer II

[Rigs]
1x Burst Aerator II
1x Ionic Field Projector II

759 DPS with Barage 9,6km optimum + 109 km fall off and not so bad tracking I might add! (For Barrage)
953 DPS RF EMP 4,8 km optimum + 73 km fall off
131 km lock range to boot!
No implant shenanigans just perfect skills assumed.

Does not look too shabby so I don´t really see your problem OP.


The problem is.. rail krnosnos, Golem and paladin are far better. FAR better...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
MarvinOne
Zilog Enterprises
#30 - 2013-11-20 13:46:12 UTC
Vargur and PvE L4 missioning:

Agreeing that the MJD is of no use to the Vargur.

Just got my Vargur after flying the mach for some time, and i really like the vargur :-)

Use a deadspace MWD to close in fast on NPC's, go for 3 TC's (scripted)
3 TC's tracking-speed scripted will almost track 0.15

range scripted a "little" pimped boat does ~900 dps @ ~40 km and ~550 DPS @75Km

Im using a noctis when making sense, so I put 2 x NOS in the the High-slots, just for convenience.

If u use a deadspace X-large booster + a DCII instead of TE in low, u never ever have to use Bastion except
for "oh shiit is hitting the fan"
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#31 - 2013-11-20 13:51:03 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Ever heard of stack penalties? Old vargiur piltos that knew what they were doign woudl not waste so much modules on useles stack nerfed attributes. They would put also stuff for speed.. to blitz faster .

Getting clsoer faster was way more efficient way of increasign dps than fighting a 4th level stack nerf for a tiny bit more falloff (remember bastion modules suffer stack nerf).

And when I was an old Vargur pilot, I stuck to 3 Gyros for that reason. But now that we have the new Vargur, the rules have changed a bit. Yes, stacking penalties are a thing, but the DPS bonus of the fourth Gyro is non-negligible, and there really isn't anything better to do with the fifth low slot, since 2 TC + 1 TE is superior to 2 TE + 1 TC, and the Bastion module frees up mids to make that an easy trade.

If mobility was a big thing for you, you're far more likely to have been flying a Machariel. The Vargur's draw for me has always been the salvage-as-you-go factor, and as such, sitting in one spot collecting wrecks for my salvage drones to munch has always been my MO. Being able to MJD into position and then project more damage out to tractor range is a huge boon.
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
#32 - 2013-11-20 13:57:22 UTC
Ditch LMJD, put MWD turn it on go right in middle of everything, turn on bastion for 1 or 2 cycle. Kill everything with 800mm's, warp out.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-11-20 14:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Quish McQuiddy
Zor'katar wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.


Ahh yes - so I am no longer allowed to use the DPS I can get, just the DPS thats on offer. The rats also orbit, so 700 paper DPS is not 700 real DPS.

I want to fly the ship as I did, Not sit still - so Bastion is moot.

Its slower - its a nerf.
Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
#34 - 2013-11-20 14:12:28 UTC
Jack Mayhem wrote:
Just ignore the OP, he just wants to whine and no logical argument will stop him here.

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#35 - 2013-11-20 14:14:02 UTC
the op sounds like one of those hur dur people in infomercials who seem to be mentally handicapped when trying to vacuum but when they get the new and improved vacuim they act like people with doctorates in vacuum cleaning.

only with the op its the other way around.

basically op has already made up his mind before he got the bastion vargur and is now puposefully flying and fitting it like a complete and utter wankstain to prove his 'point'.

I already tested it on sisi last few weeks and it has greatly improved mission income for me because I went in with an open mind.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-11-20 14:25:54 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
the op sounds like one of those hur dur people in infomercials who seem to be mentally handicapped when trying to vacuum but when they get the new and improved vacuim they act like people with doctorates in vacuum cleaning.

only with the op its the other way around.

basically op has already made up his mind before he got the bastion vargur and is now puposefully flying and fitting it like a complete and utter wankstain to prove his 'point'.

I already tested it on sisi last few weeks and it has greatly improved mission income for me because I went in with an open mind.


Wow - did you learn to read?

OP stated, as tested on Sisi. Op made up his mind on Sisi, added to the threadnaught on F&I and noted the lack if interest by CCP. And you are probably the type of player and person that has nothing like an open mind. New toys don't make a better game, they simply homogenized the hulls and the worst ranged hulls effectively got nerfed.

You tested it on Sisi.

Descending to your level. Your dribble of **** opinion shows how much of the game you really know.
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
#37 - 2013-11-20 14:31:52 UTC
it's alot better than it was, you get almost twice the target lock speed. 2sec faster align. you can fit 1400's with MWD or MJD and pretty much anything you want. Bastion mode to top it off, which gives 100% increase in shield booster, 30% resist, 25% falloff. it's a pretty HUGE (freaking huge) buff.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-11-20 14:43:36 UTC
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Desudes wrote:
How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?

95% of mission rats stay within 50km


Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.

With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).

The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.



You are doing it wrong. Drop the MJD and bastion, use the AB, a X-L, and cap injector. Put some cap implants in, use autocannons, and skill up the falloff/tracking skills to 5. Get within 55km of your targets - melt them with the correct ammo type. You are not doing 100dps at 50km, if you are, AB to them.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#39 - 2013-11-20 14:52:42 UTC
you can still put an afterburner on your vargur (although really this is what a mach is for). Mobile refits in space, dude.
sounds like you just messed up your MJD. why did you mjd to that far away? could have just gone bastion immediately right?
if you're overdpsing with autocannons split your guns, duh.
With the MJD reduction you're probably safe using two or even three sentries.
Sounds like you're surprised autocannons don't do much from 80km. Maybe just work on positioning better.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-11-20 15:02:24 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
Quish McQuiddy wrote:
Desudes wrote:
How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?

95% of mission rats stay within 50km


Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.

With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).

The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.



You are doing it wrong. Drop the MJD and bastion, use the AB, a X-L, and cap injector. Put some cap implants in, use autocannons, and skill up the falloff/tracking skills to 5. Get within 55km of your targets - melt them with the correct ammo type. You are not doing 100dps at 50km, if you are, AB to them.


Yes - this was what I used before Rubicon, but using it now, I move slower. Quite a bit slower. I never change ammo on Autos - the DPS loss while waiting is terrible. I am burning to them or at an optimal between them to get better damage. 55k is a terrible range to shoot from with autos - but 45k is better, 35k is good, 25k is nicer still etc etc, at 15k its damn nice.

I cant make that distance at the speed I used to. To me it feels like a nerf because the short range boat that the Vargur was is gone - they have tried to make it a long range boat with Bastion/MJD but failed to take into account that the bonuses have little effect on artillery, and the double gun bonus on Marauders doesn't work well with artillery - its overdamage or underhit. With autos I didnt need more tank, or more falloff (more is nice, but when I can move in and apply it).

As many have noted for range - Paladin is much better, Golem is ok, Kronos is meh (drones gone) and Vargur just poorl.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.