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Intaki and the Federation

Author
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#301 - 2013-11-18 22:57:14 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
You have given Tuulinen-haan a rather despicable decision, Mr. Fredfred. It closely mirrors the sad state of the war. On one hand, he can say that he would eradicate Gallentia in order to preserve Caldari - not because he actually would, but because he has been challenged publicly by an opponent. Alternatively, he could acquiesce, in which case it appears as if he didn't truly wish to defend Caldari as deeply as he did previously, and his the defenders of Home appear weaker.

There are no palatable actions to take here, but I think I know which choice Tuulinen-haan will make. Honour pulls us in strange ways. I hope that a better solution for us all can be found than this brinksmanship.


I think, Scherezad, that the concept is purely conceptual. If there is one thing that has never saved an empire, it is glazing the surface of that empire's home planet. It would inspire hatred and warfare for as long as any member of that empire draws breath, whereas conventional warfare practices would probably end the conflict sooner. Instead, it would necessitate genocide.

In the end, I think the answer to that question is yes, but not even because of how far you would go to protect your home empire. The odds are that, if indeed utterly sterilizing Gallentia was the only way to save the Caldari State, then it's probably not just the Caldari State that would be in danger. To commit cultural genocide in lieu of having cultural genocide committed on you would take a force of weaponry or foolishness the likes of which no empire I have ever seen could bring to bear. We would be talking about weaponized metaviruses or system-destroying remote weapons.

The correct answer to the question, then is, "Well, yes, I suppose.... but what in the name of God would ever necessitate that? The idea is as unthinkably disgusting as the scenario, and it shall never come to pass between men of honor and civility."

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#302 - 2013-11-19 01:37:37 UTC
The correct answer to the question is a simple "yes I would, if it were necessary."

The tricky part is defining necessity.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#303 - 2013-11-19 03:06:54 UTC
Basically what Verin said. I said I would do it if it were necessary. I didn't say I'd do it for kicks.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2013-11-19 03:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#305 - 2013-11-19 04:27:35 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...


Believe me, if someone decided to glass Gallentia, I have a feeling the Gallenteans would be the second ones with their hands around the offenders' necks. Their own fellow Caldari would likely kill them for breaking their agreement.

Perhaps that is a better moral question. Assuming that there is absolutely no necessary reason to commit genocide, which I agree with, would you kill your fellow Gallenteans to save the Caldari State from annihilation?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2013-11-19 04:47:41 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...


Believe me, if someone decided to glass Gallentia, I have a feeling the Gallenteans would be the second ones with their hands around the offenders' necks. Their own fellow Caldari would likely kill them for breaking their agreement.

Perhaps that is a better moral question. Assuming that there is absolutely no necessary reason to commit genocide, which I agree with, would you kill your fellow Gallenteans to save the Caldari State from annihilation?


To save the State as a government entity from annihilation? Certainly not. To save the culture, the society, and the people in it from total annihilation? I certainly would. I can't speak for all Gallenteans, but I know I would betray my own Federation if I felt it was doing something so abhorrent and cruel that it went against every principle it was founded upon.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#307 - 2013-11-19 05:10:17 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...


Believe me, if someone decided to glass Gallentia, I have a feeling the Gallenteans would be the second ones with their hands around the offenders' necks. Their own fellow Caldari would likely kill them for breaking their agreement.

Perhaps that is a better moral question. Assuming that there is absolutely no necessary reason to commit genocide, which I agree with, would you kill your fellow Gallenteans to save the Caldari State from annihilation?


To save the State as a government entity from annihilation? Certainly not. To save the culture, the society, and the people in it from total annihilation? I certainly would. I can't speak for all Gallenteans, but I know I would betray my own Federation if I felt it was doing something so abhorrent and cruel that it went against every principle it was founded upon.


I assumed genocide was what we were talking about. Conventional warfare is all about toppling the king on the other side of the board. We'd be talking about completely melting the surface of whole planets. Entire populations.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#308 - 2013-11-19 05:24:39 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...


Believe me, if someone decided to glass Gallentia, I have a feeling the Gallenteans would be the second ones with their hands around the offenders' necks. Their own fellow Caldari would likely kill them for breaking their agreement.

Perhaps that is a better moral question. Assuming that there is absolutely no necessary reason to commit genocide, which I agree with, would you kill your fellow Gallenteans to save the Caldari State from annihilation?


To save the State as a government entity from annihilation? Certainly not. To save the culture, the society, and the people in it from total annihilation? I certainly would. I can't speak for all Gallenteans, but I know I would betray my own Federation if I felt it was doing something so abhorrent and cruel that it went against every principle it was founded upon.


I assumed genocide was what we were talking about. Conventional warfare is all about toppling the king on the other side of the board. We'd be talking about completely melting the surface of whole planets. Entire populations.


I would be ashamed to call myself Gallente if we ever did such a thing, no matter the reason.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Ata Aydin Enkhashour
Doomheim
#309 - 2013-11-19 08:58:59 UTC
Every single barely thinking creature is loyal to an ideal to some extent. But every single thikning creature is biased by its own self preservation instinct disguised as mental constructs to justify actions that are without reason or purpouse.

That is why we have wars. It is in the nature of thinking living creatures to further drown in abstract constructs the more intellingent and meditative that creature gets.

That is what drove Jovians to barely self destruct in the search for what they thought was their aims. That is what destroyed the each civilization dreams of greatness throughout the history.

It is no different that any dreams of "racial" or "universal" proportions will stumble in the smallest but always present obstacle to any group effort: Self interest.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#310 - 2013-11-19 14:55:42 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I can't imagine a conceivable scenario where such an act could even be remotely considered as "necessary".

Even without the Titan fleet pointing a doomsday at us, the Nationalist and Provist still threaten the total destruction of our homeworld...


Not all hypothetical discussions of such scenarios are threats, Anslo. And you have to understand, I can't think of a scenario in which it would be necessary either. But the fact that I can't conceive of one doesn't mean no such scenario exists, and I refuse to commit myself to an absolute refusal to do that thing out of squeamishness.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#311 - 2013-11-19 18:23:58 UTC
Clashes on Caldari Prime. Several clashes occurred along borders between Gallente- and Caldari-held districts on Caldari Prime

news source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/clashes-on-caldari-prime-quelled-by-mordus-legion/
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#312 - 2013-11-20 03:21:29 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Clashes on Caldari Prime. Several clashes occurred along borders between Gallente- and Caldari-held districts on Caldari Prime

news source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/clashes-on-caldari-prime-quelled-by-mordus-legion/

Damn Mordu!
Instead of helping us to get rid from gallentean swines, who occupy half of our homeworld, they are stopping our citizens from executing justice on gallentean oppressors.

This is a treason from the Legion!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2013-11-20 03:55:00 UTC
Quote:
a Civire woman who broke her hand striking a Mordu's Legion officer in a dropsuit.

Not gonna lie, I laughed.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#314 - 2013-11-20 04:41:45 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Quote:
a Civire woman who broke her hand striking a Mordu's Legion officer in a dropsuit.

Not gonna lie, I laughed.

I'd applaud the audacity... But if you're going to punch a wall, skip the riot middleman and just go punch a wall.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#315 - 2013-11-20 05:37:19 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Clashes on Caldari Prime. Several clashes occurred along borders between Gallente- and Caldari-held districts on Caldari Prime

news source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/clashes-on-caldari-prime-quelled-by-mordus-legion/

Damn Mordu!
Instead of helping us to get rid from gallentean swines, who occupy half of our homeworld, they are stopping our citizens from executing justice on gallentean oppressors.

This is a treason from the Legion!



From the news item:

Quote:
Mordu's Legion, the neutral police force agreed upon by both the Caldari and Gallente governments, stepped in on each occasion to put a halt to the violence shortly after it began


It is not treason if Mordu's is working under the agreement of BOTH of our governments, so cool your afterburner. ;)

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#316 - 2013-11-20 05:46:26 UTC
Arkady Vachon wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Clashes on Caldari Prime. Several clashes occurred along borders between Gallente- and Caldari-held districts on Caldari Prime

news source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/clashes-on-caldari-prime-quelled-by-mordus-legion/

Damn Mordu!
Instead of helping us to get rid from gallentean swines, who occupy half of our homeworld, they are stopping our citizens from executing justice on gallentean oppressors.

This is a treason from the Legion!



From the news item:

Quote:
Mordu's Legion, the neutral police force agreed upon by both the Caldari and Gallente governments, stepped in on each occasion to put a halt to the violence shortly after it began


It is not treason if Mordu's is working under the agreement of BOTH of our governments, so cool your afterburner. ;)

You already know you're wasting your time trying to put a dent in the Happy Heth Shield, right? Just making sure.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#317 - 2013-11-20 05:49:50 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Arkady Vachon wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Clashes on Caldari Prime. Several clashes occurred along borders between Gallente- and Caldari-held districts on Caldari Prime

news source http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/clashes-on-caldari-prime-quelled-by-mordus-legion/

Damn Mordu!
Instead of helping us to get rid from gallentean swines, who occupy half of our homeworld, they are stopping our citizens from executing justice on gallentean oppressors.

This is a treason from the Legion!



From the news item:

Quote:
Mordu's Legion, the neutral police force agreed upon by both the Caldari and Gallente governments, stepped in on each occasion to put a halt to the violence shortly after it began


It is not treason if Mordu's is working under the agreement of BOTH of our governments, so cool your afterburner. ;)

You already know you're wasting your time trying to put a dent in the Happy Heth Shield, right? Just making sure.


Happy Heth Shield...I'm glad I wasnt drinking my coffee right then.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2013-11-20 12:18:18 UTC
Nice to see Mordu's Legion are actually doing their job effectively for once.

Anyone else get the feeling that the only reason they bothered to report the woman striking the dropsuit with her bare hand was to embarass her, though, right? Like, it's a worse punishment than being arrested or fined - being known as "the woman who thought it was a good idea to punch a dropsuit."

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#319 - 2013-11-20 12:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
It could also be seen as a gesture of defiance (though a futile and, in this case, misdirected gesture). I guess it is all a matter of perspective. Personally, I see a passion and courage to be admired, which is not uncommon among the Civire I know, but a misdirection and lack of prior planning that is the unfortunate consequence of mob-mentality. This woman is a mere victim of circumstance married to the more admirable qualities of her birth and upbringing, leading to what some will surely declare bravery, others stupidity. Ironically, this very difference of opinion might lead to such a situation occurring again, off the back of a riot, spurred by an argument. Maybe this time it'd be a male Gallente in this poor woman's position, or even an Amarr or Minmatar immigrant on either side of the conflict?

No matter what the combination, the failure and shame lies with people with more power and less scruples than a defiant young woman lashing out at what she has been led to believe is unfair oppression, now coupled with allegations of spying by a foe she has already been educated to dislike, if not hate.

It is good to see Mordu's Legion proving that they are as effective in quelling violence as they are in enacting it, but I take far more heart in the seemingly unanimous agreement from all district administrators that this intervention was a victory for peaceful co-existence. The process of stabilising the Caldari home world in it's current state will never be without painful upwellings of tension such as that reported, but through the executive and administrative actions shown in the aftermath of this latest incident, a glimmer of hope remains.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#320 - 2013-11-20 13:20:22 UTC
Aelisha wrote:
It could also be seen as a gesture of defiance (though a futile and, in this case, misdirected gesture). I guess it is all a matter of perspective. Personally, I see a passion and courage to be admired, which is not uncommon among the Civire I know, but a misdirection and lack of prior planning that is the unfortunate consequence of mob-mentality. This woman is a mere victim of circumstance married to the more admirable qualities of her birth and upbringing, leading to what some will surely declare bravery, others stupidity. Ironically, this very difference of opinion might lead to such a situation occurring again, off the back of a riot, spurred by an argument. Maybe this time it'd be a male Gallente in this poor woman's position, or even an Amarr or Minmatar immigrant on either side of the conflict?

No matter what the combination, the failure and shame lies with people with more power and less scruples than a defiant young woman lashing out at what she has been led to believe is unfair oppression, now coupled with allegations of spying by a foe she has already been educated to dislike, if not hate.

It is good to see Mordu's Legion proving that they are as effective in quelling violence as they are in enacting it, but I take far more heart in the seemingly unanimous agreement from all district administrators that this intervention was a victory for peaceful co-existence. The process of stabilising the Caldari home world in it's current state will never be without painful upwellings of tension such as that reported, but through the executive and administrative actions shown in the aftermath of this latest incident, a glimmer of hope remains.


I think Irixus was mainly mentioning the futility in light that she didn't take a bat to the dropsuit instead of her fist. Passion and courage being admirable aside, I think we can all agree those traits would be better served if one keeps common rules of physics in mind.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26