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[Rubicon] Rapid Missile Launchers - v2

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Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1821 - 2013-11-19 10:21:43 UTC
Anunna Morgan wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed but as a potential feature/workaround to the long reload vs switching damage types why don't we just have a variable reload time?

You could give the new rapid launchers the same 'base' reload time as other launchers (10 seconds) and then just have an additional reload time on a per missile basis eg;

reload time = 10 + ((30 / magazine size) * used ammo))

RLML reloading with a full magazine takes 10 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 0)
RLML reloading with an empty magazine tokes 40 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 18)

RLML reloading with 10 charges in the magazine takes 23.33 seconds (10 + ((30 / 18) * 8)

This would give pilots the flexibility to change ammo mid fight without too much heartache while also allowing skilled pilots to perform 'tactical' reloads during breaks in the fighting, lending these modules to more maneuverable fights. Conversely tactics could be used against RLML users to make them waste missiles making changing ammo more painful.


Nice
You make a better game designer than Rise.

Shame you didn't post this before he went into full on lalalala I'm not listening mode.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1822 - 2013-11-19 10:34:06 UTC
Rise, reduce light missile damage by 5% and bring the old RLML back. You can't just delete one weapon system over night, ignoring every negative feedback. Shorten the reload time of your new swarm launcher to 30 seconds, increase charges to at least 25 and adjust RoF accordingly.
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
#1823 - 2013-11-19 11:02:27 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Anunna Morgan wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed but as a potential feature/workaround to the long reload vs switching damage types why don't we just have a variable reload time?

You could give the new rapid launchers the same 'base' reload time as other launchers (10 seconds) and then just have an additional reload time on a per missile basis eg;

reload time = 10 + ((30 / magazine size) * used ammo))

RLML reloading with a full magazine takes 10 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 0)
RLML reloading with an empty magazine tokes 40 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 18)

RLML reloading with 10 charges in the magazine takes 23.33 seconds (10 + ((30 / 18) * 8)

This would give pilots the flexibility to change ammo mid fight without too much heartache while also allowing skilled pilots to perform 'tactical' reloads during breaks in the fighting, lending these modules to more maneuverable fights. Conversely tactics could be used against RLML users to make them waste missiles making changing ammo more painful.


Nice
You make a better game designer than Rise.

Shame you didn't post this before he went into full on lalalala I'm not listening mode.



Not sure why you think he would be receptive to that ida when he hasn't been receptive to any others.
Chris Carlyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1824 - 2013-11-19 11:16:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I ------------------------- 7.8s
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II ------------------------- 6.24s
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher --- 6.24s
Other meta types not shown

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------------------ 6.48s
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II ------------------------- 5.185s
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------ 5.185s
Other meta types not shown

Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 18 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 23 charges



If you make sure you've done your homework before you go out hunting and have loaded up missiles with the right damage type, this is perfect!
Some fights don't even last 18-23 seconds, so why worry about having to reload? This is hit-and-run at it's best. I love it!

Do you know who's going to inherit New Eden? Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1825 - 2013-11-19 11:29:11 UTC
Chris Carlyle wrote:

If you make sure you've done your homework before you go out hunting and have loaded up missiles with the right damage type, this is perfect!
Some fights don't even last 18-23 seconds, so why worry about having to reload? This is hit-and-run at it's best. I love it!

When we get our old RLML back I will agree with you. Until then no nO NO NO NO.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1826 - 2013-11-19 13:02:27 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
lol?

LMLs in a Kestrel have too much range so we should nerf RLML in a Cerberus?

You make as much sense as CCP RIse.

Oh come on ! What connexion doesn't work in your brain to not see that LM is the ammo used by RLML and that if they are OP in a LML they also are in RLML ?!

And nobody ansered the important question which, IMO, lead to these swarm launchers : provided HML will be fixed, how do you balance HML and HAM vs RLML if they have the same mechanic ?
KatanTharkay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1827 - 2013-11-19 14:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: KatanTharkay
I just tested the new RLML launchers in a Caracal with triple BCS on Tranquility and they where unable to kill a cookie cutter dual repp Incursus. They are unusable now not only for solo work but also for small gangs (2-4 people) unless you ganking solitary cruisers.

At the moment, the burst damage is not enough. They need to have a better rate of fire.
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#1828 - 2013-11-19 14:18:34 UTC
Oh all the fuss over missiles. They suck balls either way. They can't compare with turrets on any standard (damage, range, projection)

Unless you suck and don't understand tracking you'll want to use turrets.

If missiles work it's cause of the specific hull like the mids on a hookbil or the tank on a drake, the mwd sig radius on talwar and so on.

Either way if missiles where made on par with turrets then they would be op cause you just fire them and that's that.

So leave the ****** weapon system for ****** players, it's fine the way it is.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#1829 - 2013-11-19 14:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Fenris
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Oh all the fuss over missiles. They suck balls either way. They can't compare with turrets on any standard (damage, range, projection)

Unless you suck and don't understand tracking you'll want to use turrets.

If missiles work it's cause of the specific hull like the mids on a hookbil or the tank on a drake, the mwd sig radius on talwar and so on.

Either way if missiles where made on par with turrets then they would be op cause you just fire them and that's that.

So leave the ****** weapon system for ****** players, it's fine the way it is.



you are some kind of right about
Kazekage Dono wrote:

If missiles work it's cause of the specific hull like the mids on a hookbil or the tank on a drake, the mwd sig radius on talwar and so on.


but else your arrogance and ignorance just amazes me
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1830 - 2013-11-19 14:28:41 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

And nobody ansered the important question which, IMO, lead to these swarm launchers : provided HML will be fixed, how do you balance HML and HAM vs RLML if they have the same mechanic ?

Page 71... not really balanced but way better than what we have now. Lower light missile damage by 5% and voila.
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:

Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Explosion velocity: 190*
Explosion radius: 75*

Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Explosion velocity: 150*
Explosion radius: 120*

Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Explosion velocity: 210*
Explosion radius: 60*

Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Explosion velocity: 165*
Explosion radius: 100*

--
*with good skills and implants
Kazekage Dono
Pertonas Development Inc
#1831 - 2013-11-19 14:32:06 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kazekage Dono wrote:
Oh all the fuss over missiles. They suck balls either way. They can't compare with turrets on any standard (damage, range, projection)

Unless you suck and don't understand tracking you'll want to use turrets.

If missiles work it's cause of the specific hull like the mids on a hookbil or the tank on a drake, the mwd sig radius on talwar and so on.

Either way if missiles where made on par with turrets then they would be op cause you just fire them and that's that.

So leave the ****** weapon system for ****** players, it's fine the way it is.



you are some kind of right about
Kazekage Dono wrote:

If missiles work it's cause of the specific hull like the mids on a hookbil or the tank on a drake, the mwd sig radius on talwar and so on.


but else your arrogance and ignorance just amazes me


Ignorence ... based on what? How about your arrogance without any backup to your claims. So where is it mr one liner?
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1832 - 2013-11-19 14:38:46 UTC
KatanTharkay wrote:
I just tested the new RLML launchers in a Caracal with triple BCS on Tranquility and they where unable to kill a cookie cutter dual repp Incursus. They are unusable now not only for solo work but also for small gangs (2-4 people) unless you ganking solitary cruisers.

At the moment, the burst damage is not enough. They need to have a better rate of fire.



Could you post:

Your Caracal Fit

The Incurses Fit

The ammount of damage per volley you were getting. (find this in your logs)

I will then look at how, why and a way for you to refit and fly in order to take advantage of the new weapon system. Ususally, EvE players can figure this out for themselves but there are so many tears about this I thought I would try and help myself
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1833 - 2013-11-19 15:02:14 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Anunna Morgan wrote:
Sorry if this has already been discussed but as a potential feature/workaround to the long reload vs switching damage types why don't we just have a variable reload time?

You could give the new rapid launchers the same 'base' reload time as other launchers (10 seconds) and then just have an additional reload time on a per missile basis eg;

reload time = 10 + ((30 / magazine size) * used ammo))

RLML reloading with a full magazine takes 10 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 0)
RLML reloading with an empty magazine tokes 40 seconds to reload (10 + ((30 / 18) * 18)

RLML reloading with 10 charges in the magazine takes 23.33 seconds (10 + ((30 / 18) * 8)

This would give pilots the flexibility to change ammo mid fight without too much heartache while also allowing skilled pilots to perform 'tactical' reloads during breaks in the fighting, lending these modules to more maneuverable fights. Conversely tactics could be used against RLML users to make them waste missiles making changing ammo more painful.


Nice
You make a better game designer than Rise.

Shame you didn't post this before he went into full on lalalala I'm not listening mode.



When is he ever not in that mode?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1834 - 2013-11-19 15:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi!

As you guys know, we're introducing Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers in Rubicon for battleships that will echo the Rapid Light Launchers in design. Well, now that the current design has been out and available for discussion for awhile, we've taken on a lot of feedback and we don't feel completely satisfied with them.

The problem we're facing is that it's very hard to create a good balance between rapid launchers and their on-size counterparts(torpedo launchers, cruise launchers, heavy missile launchers and heavy assault missile launchers). Currently I feel we have the numbers high enough that they are almost always the right choice, but if we tune them down at all they will almost never be the right choice. We would much rather that the decision to use rapid launchers depended heavily on context and that you would choose them not because they were generally better than their competition but because your specific situation called for them.

Here's the plan to improve the situation:

Rapid Launchers (both Light and Heavy) will be changed to have a much higher damage per second number, roughly on par with Heavy Assault Launchers and Torpedo Launchers respectively, but their ammo capacity will be reduced and their reload time will be increased increased (think Ancilliary Shield Boosters). Some specifics:

Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Light Missile Launcher I ------------------------- 7.8s
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II ------------------------- 6.24s
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher --- 6.24s
Other meta types not shown

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire set to:
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------------------ 6.48s
Rapid Heavy Missile launcher II ------------------------- 5.185s
'Arbalest' Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher I ------------ 5.185s
Other meta types not shown

Reload time for both groups set to 40 seconds.

T2 Rapid Light Launchers can carry roughly 18 charges
T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers can carry roughly 23 charges

This translates to a Raven with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Heavy Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 926 dps
This translates to a Caracal with 3x BCU, T2 Rapid Light Launchers and Scourge Fury missiles doing 409 dps

Both ships would have around 50 seconds of up time followed by 40 seconds of reload meaning that over extended engagements their true dps would be a bit more than half of the dps number above.

This would provide new strategic gameplay for Rapid Missile users as well as their opponents. It would make these systems stronger against ships that can be killed inside the active window(smaller ships) but worse over longer fights, which would usually mean fights against ships in the same class or larger. It would generally be more interesting but would also leave more space for the main missile systems to thrive as well.

Let me know what you think and keep in mind that numbers may be adjusted slightly as we continue to test.
Thanks
Just a hint.. Do you think it might of been a help to include the fact PG for RLML's would go from 53 to 77 meaning you now not only have less overall DPS but need to gimp the rest of your fit to even use them.. Way to screw up one of the few weapons you could use without all 5's. Can I get a refund for the ones I own, they won't sell on the market, no-one is going to use them..

** Prior to Rubicon, volley damage (with my skills) was 970, post Rubicon volley damage 1000. So, was 970 every 4.5 sec with a max of 80 volleys, now 1000 every 2.87 for 51.5 seconds..
For PVP could this be considered OP, 18000 alpha damage in 50 seconds ? The time to apply damage will be less for those with all 5's, add a couple of damage rigs and some implants??

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1835 - 2013-11-19 15:35:52 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Do you think it might of been a help to include the fact PG for RLML's would go from 53 to 77 meaning you now not only have less overall DPS but need to gimp the rest of your fit to even use them.. Way to screw up one of the few weapons you could use without all 5's.

Not empty quoting.

Btw, screwing up newbs like this is IMO worse than abusing rookies in starter systems.

It would be handy to add a line for all future devs lol - disregarding endless warnings to cease inappropriate behavior from majority of posters should be considered a violation and as such prohibited.
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#1836 - 2013-11-19 16:28:31 UTC
Lost cause. The new RLML is worthless. Were we due for another caldari spay and neutering? Anyways have your new players switch to the vexor and cerbs should now switch to the ishtar. Carry on life and forget this abomination ever happened.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#1837 - 2013-11-19 16:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
lol?

LMLs in a Kestrel have too much range so we should nerf RLML in a Cerberus?

You make as much sense as CCP RIse.

Oh come on ! What connexion doesn't work in your brain to not see that LM is the ammo used by RLML and that if they are OP in a LML they also are in RLML ?!

And nobody ansered the important question which, IMO, lead to these swarm launchers : provided HML will be fixed, how do you balance HML and HAM vs RLML if they have the same mechanic ?



What connection doesn't work in your brain if Light Missiles need an adjustment in range that you don't increase PG requirements in RLML and completely change them into garbage with a 40 sec reload?

That isn't just a nerf to Light Missiles, it is a nerf to several ships as well if not a complete gutting of their use for anything other than a roaming gang that can bring number superiority to every fight.

You wanna talk Light Missiles, fine, knock yourself out with theorycrafting.

But in reality all they needed was a tiny flight time nerf and maybe a tiny explosion radius increase ie applied damage nerf and not a full nerfing of the Caracal, Cerberus and others that use RLML.

How ******* hard is that?
Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#1838 - 2013-11-19 17:02:18 UTC
CW Itovuo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
In 8 hours this is all moot anyway...



It was moot the moment CCP made the announcement.


Out of bread? Let them eat cake.


Best post in this thread.
Maxemus Payne
THE BOARD OF EDUCATION
#1839 - 2013-11-19 18:07:50 UTC
Confirmed- new RLMLs went from the most usable missile launcher platform to the least. Excellent work there CCP.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1840 - 2013-11-19 19:45:29 UTC
Niena Nuamzzar wrote:
Chris Carlyle wrote:

If you make sure you've done your homework before you go out hunting and have loaded up missiles with the right damage type, this is perfect!
Some fights don't even last 18-23 seconds, so why worry about having to reload? This is hit-and-run at it's best. I love it!

When we get our old RLML back I will agree with you. Until then no nO NO NO NO.


Old rlml's were dumb.

Current rlml's are also dumb, but kinda interesting dumb.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish