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Does WAR make players leave Eve?

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#621 - 2013-11-19 11:29:52 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
At least three of the major "opposing viewpoint holders" in this thread have confirmed that they are carebears.

So basically, if CCP announced that they were planning to increase the minimum cost of wardeccing <50 member corps from 100 million to 200 million, they would not be affected by the change whatsoever. I wonder if they would complain as vocally as they have in this thread.


I wouldnt.

And you call us carebears...but you are clearly unfamiliar with the term.


It is used to those that want risk free gaming...so without PvP. How can those who want wardecs to stay be carebears.

I make my money by 5 minutes every 2 days of updating trader orders. Leaves me with more then enough time for the fun part of EVE....PvP

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#622 - 2013-11-19 11:51:42 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:


* snipped quote *

Why NOT change it? It was increased by 25x in Inferno, and "yet the walls stand." It's been a while since Inferno. Why NOT bump it up a notch? As the OP mentioned, the reason to raise it a bit would be to cut down on (notice, no one is saying "to END") knee-jerk, meaningless, "for the lulz" wardecs, which may in turn increase new player retention. That's the theory. How do YOU see a reasonable increase in the minimum wardec cost (say to 100 or 200m) playing out?

*snipped quote *

That's some seriously creative slippery slope action right there. Unfortunately, without any evidence to back the assertion, it's a logical fallacy. Same with the false dilemma about having to choose between the price as it is now (50 mil) and so high that only the largest alliance in the game can afford it. If you are so space-poor that you think only goons could afford to pay a 100m or 200m wardec minimum fee, then you're not mining the correct rocks sir.

* Snipped quote *

That's an interesting theory. I think people who are inflexible and forget how important adaptability is in Eve could just as easily be the death of it. As for how many people Eve needs, that's simple. Eve, like any other MMO, is constantly losing players. It needs new players coming in to at least equal the number of players constantly phasing out. In order to GROW it needs MORE than that coming in....and staying...instead of giving up after the trial. That's just basic business sense.

CCP has nerfed high sec danger many MANY times. In doing so it has, and will continue to, give "those people" more than temporary placation and cursory notice. And yet Eve still prospers.

But if we bump the min wardec cost up a bit, it will all come crumbling down. Yeah, I'm sure it will. Roll


So, you are asking for other people to change their playstyle to suit yours. As changing the game mechanics to make wardecs harder so that people who are having fun by just wardeccing for the lulz can't do that anymore.

I think the MAJOR reason for a lot of things happening here is the lack of information.

A lot of the New Player retention can be fixed by giving them information in the NPE about what the extra options you get but also what the downsides are of joining/creating a player corp are.

If the tutorial / NPE would mention that WHEN you are in a player corp you can be wardec'd and that this includes non CONCORD fighting everywhere, it would mean that those that do join a player corp know about the 'risk' they are taking.

Also, you say increase the wardecs. I say MASSIVELY increase the costs of creating / maintaining a corporation.

ATM you only need less then 1 hour of skill + about 1.6mil to create a corp and you are done...
At least the mechanics of wardec DID change...
Now let's make creating a corp harder, so that those who really want a corp, know what they are doing by not making it this easy to make one.

Also, currently there is already a mechanic that an alliance has to pay monthly for the amount of corps that are part of the alliance to CONCORD. Do the same for a corp, make it have a monthly fee in regards to how big they are, as a bigger corp gets more income from their members tax, they can sustain them self more easily then a 3 man corp. And we all know that there is safety in numbers...

If you don't want to be part of a big corp and play with friends. You can still do that, you just have to work together to pay for it.

OR

You can all hang out in NPC corp and just create a private chat channel where you hang out together. You don't have to be in the same corp to do stuff together (hell, most of my activities in EVE revolve around doing public stuff with people in different corps / alliances).

Sure you will have to pay that 11% tax to the NPC corp, see that as a tax you pay to not be able to wardec'd and you can't drop a POS. Well, that is called having pros and cons on things.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#623 - 2013-11-19 11:59:38 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Why NOT change it? It was increased by 25x in Inferno, and "yet the walls stand." It's been a while since Inferno. Why NOT bump it up a notch?


Mostly because if you are asking for a change, it falls on you to justify it, not just say "why not?".



As seen below in the full quote, I did offer a justification for it, and so did the OP.

Quote:

Why NOT change it? It was increased by 25x in Inferno, and "yet the walls stand." It's been a while since Inferno. Why NOT bump it up a notch? As the OP mentioned, the reason to raise it a bit would be to cut down on (notice, no one is saying "to END") knee-jerk, meaningless, "for the lulz" wardecs, which may in turn increase new player retention. That's the theory. How do YOU see a reasonable increase in the minimum wardec cost (say to 100 or 200m) playing out?


No one seems to have a problem offering up pictures of doom and gloom when we're discussing changes to the wardec system in general terms. Why would you guys want to clam up when discussing specific numbers?


And from your end I am STILL missing to lines of actual proof:

1. The number of frivolous wardecs decreased when it went from 2 to 50mil...If that was the case for the increase (AS YOU CLAIMED IT WAS), please show it.

2. The numbers will decrease when it increased even more. You still fail to see that no matter how high, people will still be able to fund the wardecs.

ISK isn't really a problem in EVE, it's easily gained and most Wardeccing people have other characters to supply them with money.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#624 - 2013-11-19 13:19:37 UTC
Aid Bliss wrote:
Very interesting thread. I'm a new player, focusing on pve and i imagine i will be for quite some time to come because right now it gives me time to become acquainted with, the notoriously steep, learning curve and being a bit of a lore geek i currently find checking out the npc corps and mission running quite interesting.
When it comes to pvp the question that most occurs to me is 'what's the point?'. Now i realise that might provoke some rather strong reactions but i certainly don't mean it in a trolling way but rather a devil's advocate way.
Ultimatly what's the point of these massive fleet battles us new players hear about? what does it really change within the eve universe?
Fleet A beats the crap outta fleet B at the arse end of the map and what does it really matter? Does it not really just come down to who has the biggest e-peen? Doesn't that seem kinda hollow?
For players actions to really effect the eve universe in any meaningful way then shouldn't some pvp content have a negligible effect on pve content? Would not more deeper, detailed pve content and more meaningful pvp content and also a melding of the two, benefit the game as a whole?


i'll try to give you a few explanation.

first, eve is about player interactions.
whatever you do, it goes in "pvp", this doesn't mean combat, if you mine, you most probably end selling the rocks / minerals / whatever you produced to another player.
doing that, you will "fight" other players on the price tag

any activity in eve, called pve, is in fact a mean to make such interactions happen sooner or later.

now about the fight themselves.

the big fights you most probably refers, are the null ones, where various entitys fight over sov on systems / constellations / regions most of the time because of the ressources they contain.

in lowsec, same is true, most of the time on a lower scale, but the main reasons are the roughly the same: create a "safe" area to collects pve fruits.

so in the end, pve is always a mean for players to interact, one way or another


players actions, whether they are pve or pvp related, do in fact influence the game, i suggest you take a look at the gallente ice interdiction, or the status of the game when otec was live.

in a nutshell, a player driven entity managed to interdict / control one particuliar ressource, driving it's price up

this was done by pvp, and also through metagaming (alliances / non-aggresion pacts etc....)

what CCP provides us is en environment, with some pve content, and a few rules. the rest is up to us.

to go back on your comment, why does it matters?

well, if the beaten fleet was, for example, 200 dominixes, they will replaces them right? so someone, somewhere, will produce those, from material he or someone else mined.

the whole economy being player driven, CCP providing only the raw materials and some tools, means player shall do the rest, up to the point where someone will sell a dominix in jita.

same goes for everything, ships / modules / pos / ammunition / drones / fuel .....you name it

in a nutshell: why does it matters big fights occurs (in fact, fights whatever their size): this is what drives the whole economy of the game, leading you, miner or mission runner, to actually sell your minerals / loot!
fuer0n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#625 - 2013-11-21 21:49:57 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Cyborg 497 wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
WTB Extra tank for highsec carebear tears. Current tanks are already full.


Also, if a 100 man indy corp gets wardecced by a 7 man PvP corp....wow, the odds are 100:7. But instead of fighting together in a PVP GAME, you come here to whine about EVE being unfair.


Tip: EVE isnt fair. HTFU or go play a different theme park game.


You ignored my example about that: when the aggressors were challenged they stayed docked up in a station. They also rarely logged in, yet decced as many corps as they could pay for, costly themselves a few 100miliion, costing the many defenders several billions!

Meanwhile the 7-man corp chuckled as they thought to themselves, "How dangerous we are, to declare war on so many!"

The balance is clearly wrong IMO and needs a neutral head of CCP to examine it.

Tip: Go play GTA yourself!


So. The aggressors dont log on. HOW is that affecting the defenders. They cant kill you when not logged in. I have mined and missioned in the past while under a wardec. Add them to your watchlist, be on your toes when one of them is online. If they are all offline, what is different then not wardecced.

YOU are exactly the kind that is wrong with EVE. Expecting a complete safe enviroment and CCPs help all the time.

Let me repeat it again: CCP themself stated that highsec is NOT completely safe, just a bit safer. They dont want WoW inspace like you want. The stuff is working as intended. EVE is Darwinism at its best, adapt or die... A 100 man indy corp can wreck havoc to any PvP corp that decs them. They have numbers, they can build their own supplies. They just need a big pair of balls and tactics, but.most only care about 1 thing, their own carebearing size of their wallets


It has absolutley nothing to do with current mechanics. It is all about the mind set behind the key board.

Due to the fact they are deficient, in the ability to mentally deal with the situation, they want CCP to build a handicap accessible mechanic to make it fair.


what you want any what they are, just kill.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#626 - 2013-11-22 14:47:55 UTC
oh good god, this thread still hasn't been locked?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Burning Furry
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2013-11-22 17:13:43 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Burning Furry wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
What war decs need is the ability to provoke actual conflict and not just docking up


4 man newbie corp gets war-decced by a 50 man l33t pvp corp for funsies.

Tell me.....what else can be done bar docking up? Given that i'm not a sadomasochist?


I would also like to point out that when 1 person decs your corp none of you log in. So in affect even when you outnumber somebody you still stay docked or logged off. So it does not matter either way around your opinion is really irrelevant.

People complaining about being outnumbered in war will also complain if they are at war with 1 person. They will always try to justify why it should change there but reality they actually don't want it in EVE at all.

Might I suggest X?

Well you did log in yesterday but for a few minutes.


I have actually bought x-rebirth.

Star citizens i'm also eagerly awaiting.

It's a beautiful train-wreck of a game, broken on so many levels. Yet more fun (in my opinion) that eve pvp so i went there for the duration of the dec. No amount of patching will fix x rebirth.

Numbers aside, your killboard is scary, not a hope of competing, even with 3v1, and my wallet can't support ships on par with what you fly.
Valandria Olgidar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#628 - 2013-11-22 17:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Valandria Olgidar
deleted, made no sense at all
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#629 - 2013-11-22 17:40:07 UTC
Orion Hellscream Chanlin wrote:


As we see in real life, war is not declared cheaply and is done rarely.



You know the country USA ? I think that answer this question.
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#630 - 2013-11-22 20:49:27 UTC
Three spam posts were removed.

ISD Tyrozan

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Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#631 - 2013-11-22 20:50:08 UTC
War?

Ohhhhhh HighSec woes Roll

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.