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HiSec POCOs, Chiral Structures, and POS fuel
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Marsan
#1 - 2013-11-18 03:01:29 UTC
It seems to me the next major bottleneck in POS fuel is Chiral Structures. My thinking is that as Lava and Plasma planets are some what rare in HS someone is going to start blowing up the NPC offices on most of them and put up POCO with fairly heavy tax rates on the remaining ones. It's going to be interesting to see the effects of this ripple through the market. Most of the other POS fuel components can be gathered on barren, and gas planets which are too common in high sec to be easily monopolized.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
okoolos rimmer
Napkin Nation
#2 - 2013-11-18 03:17:32 UTC
Chiral structures make up only 10% of PI needed to make fuel blocks. Toxic and Reactive metals represent 21% which is twice as much. I doubt structures will be a bottleneck any time soon. All PI prices are bound to go up at least in short term and the market is already adjusting. New deployabes will also have an effect on PI.

My 0.02 cents.
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2013-11-18 15:11:08 UTC
I am really looking forward to seeing how the BIG boys play this game.

Clearly the 0.0 guys are looking at it as free easy cash, and it could be just that. But if people like RvB, Eve Uni and Marmite decide they are going in big, it could get interesting pretty fast from a gameplay perspective.

Does anyone have any figures on where PI comes from? Hi/Low/Null?
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-11-18 15:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Given the pitiful amount of resources on your average Empire planet, and thus the overall contribution to the supply -- in this case Chiral Structures -- it won't be much of a change.

Expect MORE of a change if certain entities simply decide to have a good ol' fashioned "embargo" party by cutting the supply down from vastly more productive planets outside of Empire.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Marsan
#5 - 2013-11-18 17:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsan
okoolos rimmer wrote:
Chiral structures make up only 10% of PI needed to make fuel blocks. Toxic and Reactive metals represent 21% which is twice as much. I doubt structures will be a bottleneck any time soon. All PI prices are bound to go up at least in short term and the market is already adjusting. New deployabes will also have an effect on PI.

My 0.02 cents.




That they make up 10% of the PI need is meaningless. Moongoo makes up a small amount of T2 ships, but it's been most of the price of T2s. Reactive/base metals are found on Barren planets which are extremely common everywhere. Heavy/toxic Metals are found only on Plasma, Lava, and Ice planets. I'm not sure how common Ice planets are so Toxic Metals might also be pain point for POS fuels. Certainly I'd expect Consumer Electronics, and Enriched Uranium prices to increase given a lot current production is likely done entirely on Lava and Plasma planets to avoid import export issues.

So maybe I'll add that to the list of PI I'm stock piling instead of selling. I guess it's time to stop doing Rocket Fuel and Coolant consider shifting my LS PI to an area with more Lava, and Plasma. Currently I have access to only one Plasma, a Storm, and some Gas. It's nice as it's quiet, has NPC CO, and it surprisingly close to a trade hub.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Syrk
Caldari Militia Supply Corps
#6 - 2013-11-18 20:06:33 UTC
Perhaps my calculations are off, but with a minimum 10% export and 5% import tax, I don't see high sec PI being tremendously profitable. Am I missing something, or is it still more worthwhile to remain in low/null sec for PI?
okoolos rimmer
Napkin Nation
#7 - 2013-11-18 20:11:18 UTC
Marsan wrote:
okoolos rimmer wrote:
Chiral structures make up only 10% of PI needed to make fuel blocks. Toxic and Reactive metals represent 21% which is twice as much. I doubt structures will be a bottleneck any time soon. All PI prices are bound to go up at least in short term and the market is already adjusting. New deployabes will also have an effect on PI.

My 0.02 cents.




That they make up 10% of the PI need is meaningless. Moongoo makes up a small amount of T2 ships, but it's been most of the price of T2s. Reactive/base metals are found on Barren planets which are extremely common everywhere. Heavy/toxic Metals are found only on Plasma, Lava, and Ice planets. I'm not sure how common Ice planets are so Toxic Metals might also be pain point for POS fuels. Certainly I'd expect Consumer Electronics, and Enriched Uranium prices to increase given a lot current production is likely done entirely on Lava and Plasma planets to avoid import export issues.

So maybe I'll add that to the list of PI I'm stock piling instead of selling. I guess it's time to stop doing Rocket Fuel and Coolant consider shifting my LS PI to an area with more Lava, and Plasma. Currently I have access to only one Plasma, a Storm, and some Gas. It's nice as it's quiet, has NPC CO, and it surprisingly close to a trade hub.


PI component represents about 23% of the cost of a fuel block so comparison to moongoo is pretty meaningless.
Marsan
#8 - 2013-11-19 02:05:27 UTC
okoolos rimmer wrote:

PI component represents about 23% of the cost of a fuel block so comparison to moongoo is pretty meaningless.


No it's very relevant T2 items cost what they do because of the cost of moongoo. Not due to the cost of the minerals. If PI doubles or triples in cost suddenly the cost of POS fuel becomes driven by the cost of PI. (Just as moongoo drives T2 costs.) A lot of PI is done in HS by alts. I have 2 alts doing lazy HS PI that I check on every couple of days when I'm bored. It's slow, but steady isk making EU, and CE in HS. The returns my mains make in LS are better and more exciting, but there are a lot of people doing a little PI on the side in HS.

I suspect that HS provides at least a 1/3 of the PI market. The guys in WHs, LS, and NS produce a lot of PI, but it's a pain to move it to HS to fuel the ungodly number HS POSes for research, and what not. Most of them are only producing it for personal use as they have better ways of making isk.

PS- I don't expect the price of PI to go up too much as people in WHs, and NS will provide what the market needs, but it will cost more due to the opportunity cost of sourcing it there.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#9 - 2013-11-19 06:40:25 UTC
okoolos rimmer wrote:
Chiral

My 0.02 cents.



It's either 0.02 dollars or 2 cents
Lucy Shi
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-11-19 07:25:09 UTC
Then again it wouldn't take much for a bored o.o corp to decided they want to see what they can do to the price. Say eg goons and blowing up mining barges in ice fields. If their really bored how many hi sec pocos could they take out just for giggles.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-11-19 11:14:53 UTC
Lucy Shi wrote:
Then again it wouldn't take much for a bored o.o corp to decided they want to see what they can do to the price. Say eg goons and blowing up mining barges in ice fields. If their really bored how many hi sec pocos could they take out just for giggles.

I'm expecting poco-geddon. Wipe every POCO off a planet for a few weeks, no-one will do PI there any more so there's no incentive to put a POCO up. Target your POCO killing to e.g. plasma planets and watch certain PI prices rise, the PI goods that you happened to invest heavily in before starting your poco-geddon.

Harder to do PI in high sec means more people do it in null so null POCO landlords get more taxes. Also higher PI prices lead existing Null PIers to increase production, again more taxes.

Win win.
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#12 - 2013-11-19 11:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jdestars
Felicity Love wrote:
Given the pitiful amount of resources on your average Empire planet, and thus the overall contribution to the supply -- in this case Chiral Structures -- it won't be much of a change.

.


maybe you dont know but only raw material are the pitiful amount of resources on your average Empire planet, all rest of product are same that you piiful amount 0.0 product
High :75 % player so what you expected ? that 9% of player ( less without fighter) can product more the high sec ? Lol

do you count the lost of you alliance to protect your asset and product system ??? yeah we lost 1 supercap and 30 cap .. its great victory ... not for the DAF (director Account Financial ) ...
not sur that your business are more profitable that high sec when you count the cost t of maintenance and protection of the systems of 0.0, still it would be necessary that the cost ( analytical) accounting is available for the clones of claimers;)
Marsan
#13 - 2013-11-19 22:07:38 UTC
The reason I think it will happen is that a NPC CO can be taken out afk in HS with a laser BS or 2. In LS, NS, or WH it's to dangerous to park a laser and sentry BS for hours, but in HS it's another story. Sure you could gank the BS, but even modest passive tank, and that the BS is out of sight of most gankers will make ganking unlikely.

The one upside is that the cost increase to POS fuel is limited as you can't control all the plasma or lava planets. There are always going to be WH, and NS planets that even a NS block can't touch.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#14 - 2013-11-22 11:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jdestars
control by tax not seems equal to have monopole of production , and control flow product not seems equal to have market control too

Check the stock order in all market before the patch

if you want to control access ,set up a gantry with no upgrade its the only way to block production , but if you do that in all planets in high sec you be sur to have eternal war cost with all high sec producer


nota: ive see player which dont set completly the office ( upgrade is necessary ) and block all production exchange office Twisted
and if all P2/P3 /P4 product are blocked , you dont have any customer for your own P1 product because final customer its producter not trader for this good

some player could envisage this strategy of large-scale blocking on the highsec but some negatives effects on markets in high sec and probablly a desertion of the game by casual player

i suppose that Dev dont image this point