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Phoenix/citadel missiles buff for Odyssey 1.1

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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2013-11-05 13:18:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.



Read as "We don't have a clue what to do with the missile dreads, but know they suck, so deal with it. Can we interest you in shiny objects like OP interceptors to keep you interested?"


Wouldn't buffing dreads just play into the hands of the nullsec cartels? We must be eternally vigilant to avoid their dark tendrils of corruption.


There is a solution to fix the Phoenix, that most of the CFC is doing right now! Go to the nearest station, refine it, get all the materials back, sell the Capital Launcher Hardpoints in Jita, if you can, buy Capital Turret Hardpoints and build a Moros instead. You loose a 200-300 Millions but you get a real dread instead of a brick.

If you want to wait for CCP to fix that ship, pull a chair because it will not happen in the next 3 or 4 years!

3 years ago they said they will fix the titans and supers, they got nerfed instead and we are still waiting for the promised fix.

One thing I learn while playing this game for 5 years now, don't believe a word they say until you see it live in tranquility and never ever get your hopes up, CCP will only break your heart and let you down.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#82 - 2013-11-05 13:30:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.



Read as "We don't have a clue what to do with the missile dreads, but know they suck, so deal with it. Can we interest you in shiny objects like OP interceptors to keep you interested?"


Wouldn't buffing dreads just play into the hands of the nullsec cartels? We must be eternally vigilant to avoid their dark tendrils of corruption.


Well, at least you read my other posts, but your sarcasm is a bit weak.

But you know, maybe increasing their missile velocity, lowering their alpha, but increasing their rate of fire, might actually be something that does not require 3 years of study?
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#83 - 2013-11-05 13:36:35 UTC
Maybe they should be making the Phoenix like a big naga and change the leviathan to have crazy bonuses to cit torps that will let it annihilate dreads
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#84 - 2013-11-05 18:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Yeah, the Phoenix has been broken waaaaaaaay too long, and the only excuse I've heard from Fozzie is that, "It's too hard to think about. So we'd rather do nothing."
Hell, you can't even use them for running PVE in wormholes to shoot sleeper rats moving at half an meter a year under loki webs. Tiericide wasn't exactly tiptoeing around with the balance. In fact I'd go so far as to say certain T1 ships are as good as their T2 counter parts now, but we get to something as blatantly broken and neglected as the Phoenix and all CCP can say is, "Sorry we're too focused on Soon™ to care about something we broke half a decade ago."

Sorry if this seems more than a little hostile, but I'm just calling it as I see it.

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Lamar Muvila
Muvila War Industries
#85 - 2013-11-09 06:29:13 UTC
Why not just give them a bonus for splash damage? Kind of like a ranged smart bombing cap. An anti blob ship.

Instead of trying to make them good at something they're not good at.

PS.

I know nothing about capital ships but thought I'd give my 2 cents :)

I decided I don't like a constantly evolving game anymore..... It requires too much reading!
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-11-09 15:36:01 UTC
Lamar Muvila wrote:
Why not just give them a bonus for splash damage? Kind of like a ranged smart bombing cap. An anti blob ship.

Instead of trying to make them good at something they're not good at.

PS.

I know nothing about capital ships but thought I'd give my 2 cents :)


This is not a lets radically change a weapon system thread; this is a lets increase either the usability of citadel weapons thread. The difference is such a change requires a few numerical changes in the code while yours demands the introduction of a radically different mechanic and idea. Such an idea is not pertinent in this discussion.

Once again: I'm calling for rebalacing not redesigning. Something to make the phoenix semi-viable until the months (if not years) in the works capital overhaul is undertaken. The Phoenix has been broken for literally YEARS. It deserves a looking at.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-11-12 13:23:26 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.


I believe the point being referred to obliquely here is the potential for a Phoenix to start laying down unavoidable 150k volley damage to subcaps, given sufficient painter/web support. In contrast, an arty Nag only gets 91k volley, and a blaster Moros gets 60k or so. The difference between the damage formulae means that a ship could still hope to mitigate some turret damage by orbiting close enough, but against the properly-supported Phoenix, it could do nothing. So you have to make that level of support very hard to achieve.

So don't go near this. Don't make the Phoenix better at the blap game, don't increase its ease of damage application. Instead, make it do what it's supposed to be good at - smashing capitals and structures. Right now it's no good at this, because:

It has less raw damage than Moros and Naglfar against structures and capitals;
The interaction of siege mode and missile flight time reduces applied DPS over a siege cycle in a fashion not experienced by turret dreads;
The kinetic-only damage bonus is hopelessly vulnerable to in-combat refitting to kinetic hardeners, meaning that you have to mix damage types, further reducing your raw DPS.

Therefore:

Change Phoenix to omni-damage bonus.
Increase raw DPS (via ROF, to avoid silly volley damage) to exceed that of Naglfar and Moros.
Don't alter ease of damage application.
Increase citadel missile velocity to reduce DPS lost at the start and end of siege cycles.

Result:

A hard-tanking dread specialised in killing capitals and structures in smaller-scale fights. What it lacks in the blap game, it makes up for as a capital whacker. If the enemy brings in a Moros or Naglfar to blap your subcaps, you should bring in a Phoenix to nuke their capitals - not just another Naglfar or Moros.

Oh, and sort out the excessively homogeneous ranges of capital turrets to make the Revelation a role other than a dread for those too lazy to reload.


The thing about the ammo capacity could be fixed by introducing ammo specific holds (we know ccp can do that, we have an indy for that +.~). Since those can't be modded with Expanded Cargoholds (iirc like ore holds) that shouldn't pose to much of a problem.

I wouldn't per se make it an pure Omni damage bonus but potentially a split one seeing how neither the Moros or Revelation have a whole lot of choice in damage type either (granted it's split but still - unless we get the Lux crystals....). Since this goes right into the second point - a RoF bonus and maybe a damage bonus to KE weapons.

Citadel velocity IS a joke - you can go brew and drink a coffee between firing them and watching them cause pWetty explosions (and then there's that other Caldari ship which "utilises" citadel missiles too...).

Capital turret ranges will be fixed along a T2 capital turret release, the TE for missiles and the release of the lux crystal I bet ( SOON(tm) (they should actually make that an automatic smiley) ).
If we are lucky it'll be done along the laser renaming or the changes to HAMs etc.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#88 - 2013-11-12 15:09:32 UTC
Arcos Vandymion wrote:


Capital turret ranges will be fixed along a T2 capital turret release, the TE for missiles and the release of the lux crystal I bet ( SOON(tm) (they should actually make that an automatic smiley) ).
If we are lucky it'll be done along the laser renaming or the changes to HAMs etc.



If what Fozzie said earlier is anything to go by it'll just be conveniently forgotten.

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Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-11-18 22:47:31 UTC
CCP printed:

"As most of you know, rebalancing is a constant project in our development of EVE Online. We rebalance ships and modules every expansion for a variety of reasons.

We rebalance to improve the variety of ships and modules that are viable for our players to both fly and produce.
We rebalance to shake up the combat meta and give smart players opportunities to show off their abilities by becoming the first to find new powerful tactics.
We rebalance to keep different tactics and systems in check and prevent overpowered mechanics from ruining enjoyment for everyone."

Tell it to the Phoenix... You know... the ship that hasn't been rebalanced in years...

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#90 - 2013-11-18 23:27:55 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
CCP printed:

"As most of you know, rebalancing is a constant project in our development of EVE Online. We rebalance ships and modules every expansion for a variety of reasons.

We rebalance to improve the variety of ships and modules that are viable for our players to both fly and produce.
We rebalance to shake up the combat meta and give smart players opportunities to show off their abilities by becoming the first to find new powerful tactics.
We rebalance to keep different tactics and systems in check and prevent overpowered mechanics from ruining enjoyment for everyone."

Tell it to the Phoenix... You know... the ship that hasn't been rebalanced in years...


It would be nice if that included a capital ship, a ship that is more expensive than over 80% of other ship types, that takes longer to train than again over 80% of the other ship types available in game, and finally one of only 4 choices of a given class of ship. Hell, I don't have a single character or account that flies any capital ship and I'm complaining about it.
It would be nice if CCP fixed it soon.
Oh wait, that's right.
CCP has neglected it for at least half a decade now.

Sweet, glad we figured that out. I'm going to go back to not training certain, particular, commonly seen as useless capitals now.

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-11-19 00:16:35 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Tell it to the Phoenix... You know... the ship that hasn't been rebalanced in years...


To be fair, it recently had the siege penalty to explosion velocity removed, and before that Guided Missile Precision started affecting citadel missiles, even though Fozzie specifically said that it wouldn't. Lol

The failure of those changes to make any significant difference indicates the broad nature of the Phoenix's problems, I think.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-11-19 00:25:34 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Tell it to the Phoenix... You know... the ship that hasn't been rebalanced in years...


To be fair, it recently had the siege penalty to explosion velocity removed, and before that Guided Missile Precision started affecting citadel missiles, even though Fozzie specifically said that it wouldn't. Lol

The failure of those changes to make any significant difference indicates the broad nature of the Phoenix's problems, I think.


You're right about the minor changes, however some more changes of that nature could at least make the Phoenix a little more competitive with the other Dreads meantime. Right now it is still comparatively worse in all respects.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.